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Post by mikeguth on Oct 2, 2006 16:16:20 GMT -5
Asburygrad recently remarked that he was having trouble beating the Seka/light mech combo and also the Mjoliner/assault mech combo similar to worlds. The Seka combo with Solitaire misses the synergy of the Kolchak combo-the -1 defense and the disappearing walls. But any army with a Seka/pilot/decoy is very tough to hit.
But, it seems to me that the World Champion was actually lucky to have survived his first game, against the number 8 army led by Black Blade, the Liao Centurion, and the Kurita-Liao alliance.
Black Blade gets to run and assault, which means a 22 inch range as I recall. The Situational alliance means both mechs can get +1 to their damage values for close combat. Throw brawling into the mix and Black Blade can do 5 damage. The Centurion is a close combat monster- It gets a free second attack at -1 defense. So, it could do a total of 10 damage in one turn. Attack is a decent 11 as I recall. Bishops on the ground can go down in a turn. No vehicle is safe. The Centurion has agility-so no long range Solitaire charges against it!
What is really evil about the army is that it can win on the VC1+VC3 paradigm as well. In the last few minutes the Centurion can easily kill several infantry. If you can just slip a few infiltrators into the enemy DZ. Enemy infantry are going to be tied up defending their own mechs from close combat and basing. A 12 attack from the Black Blade against 23 is a 50% shot, which is better than any ranged shot you are likely to get on her.
You can customize the army in several ways. You could put Decoy on the Centurion and trade a bit of damage for pretty fair survivability on an assault attack. You could add additional armor to Kuro Ha- there is an armor which stacks with Black Armor, and can decrease damage by up to 4. Very nice against those energy type monsters. You could think about the unthinkable and forgo the situational alliance, then dance about trying to go for the last 5 minute win.
I am fairly impressed with this 'paradigm', which was a die roll away from beating the World Champion. My son and I are going to give it some playing time.
mike guth
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Post by tjpandv on Oct 3, 2006 9:05:55 GMT -5
Let us know how the testing goes. Charging or CCing Seka certainly looks a good way of removing some of her defensive qualities. Even having a piece like Kuro Ha or a charge monkey may well affect/limit the way your opponent uses her. Once you've paid 40 points for the SA, you need to make the most of it. Kuro Ha and Yen Low Wang only give you 2 pieces, adding a third puts you tight on points but it does increase your options. Kuro Ha + Tomark YLW + Centrella Liao Mjolnir + Minoru Kurita 1 HK ATV 2 HL ATV HK/HL SA The 91 point Mjolnir is a nice and cheap piece but with the frequency of the SA at 1/450, you'll only get to play it on one of these Mechs every turn. I'm also concerned at Kuro Ha'a low (initial) attack. With an 11 going up against Seak+Ryohara with an assault order will need a 13 to hit which is a 26% chance. Having said that, once Seka has 4 clicks on her, she's on a repair marker and much less of a threat. If we drop the Mjolnir, it gives us more room to manouvre. For example, Kuro Ha can now pick up IT and the support could be more meaningful (including 1 (or 2) Liao Arrow IVs if you're allowing retired pieces - any failed CC by Tomark can be reinforced by a POG on the target). Addiing IT to the Kuro Ha will give you a 50% chance of hitting with a CC assault order. As the AV goes up, the percentage gets so good that even I could make the roll  . Certainly worht the look and the SA must rank as one of the better ones - made all the better with pieces like the Kuro Ha and the Centurion. |
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Post by Zxqueb on Oct 3, 2006 11:04:41 GMT -5
Actually as I recall, the SA is 2/450 so you can use it on both YLW and KH each turn. IT is more important than an extra mech in my opinion.
The army that was run at worlds was definitely solid. It's aggressive and doesn't really mind starting down on points. It also can spread damage increase around to its infantry and boost them. Liao ATVs can be doing 3 damage to green units. That's quite good.
This is a strong army archtype in my opinion. I'm surprised it doesn't see more play, honestly.
Z
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Post by tjpandv on Oct 3, 2006 15:32:42 GMT -5
Actually as I recall, the SA is 2/450 so you can use it on both YLW and KH each turn. IT is more important than an extra mech in my opinion. The army that was run at worlds was definitely solid. It's aggressive and doesn't really mind starting down on points. It also can spread damage increase around to its infantry and boost them. Liao ATVs can be doing 3 damage to green units. That's quite good. This is a strong army archtype in my opinion. I'm surprised it doesn't see more play, honestly. Z Apologies about the fequency. In that case, KH and YLW as a pair are ideal and, yes, bring on the IT and lets ditch the Mjolnir... |
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Post by mikeguth on Oct 3, 2006 21:08:05 GMT -5
Apologies, I do not claim any credit for this design. Strangely enough, it was seen at our venue before WC's in the hands of a nice guy named Matt, who doesn't have a very large collection-he pretty much never buys on the secondary market. So, Black Blade was one of his real 'pull' mechs, and he had to find a way to use it. The account of the #1 and #8 armies meeting at Worlds caught my attention, my recollection is that a missed die roll by the Kurita army was the difference early in the game.
Trading brawling for IT is a big question. IT just came out for mediums! That was the genius of this build, its the first competitive medium mech build I have seen in since Janis Nova Cat at the US Nationals years ago, or was it Danni Hag?
One other evil idea- take the two mechs and add a dual JF TTL drop! Make the enemy close in.
One sad/bad note-The old standby Yami Shiro would give this army much trouble, since he can shoot through walls, and is then likely to outrange both mechs, and picks up his own red hand to hand if I recall. Better have a Cavern ready, or is it Dust Storm....
Mike
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Post by asburygrad on Oct 4, 2006 9:49:14 GMT -5
I'm not sold on 11 attack for the two key pieces. I think I would trade the +1 damage from the SA for +1 attack, but oh well!
Now, in the account of the Worlds top 8 that Mike refers to, the opponent used a formation including infantry, with Yen Lo Wang as the primary attacker. THAT sounds like a solid idea! So HK and HL ATVs and other fast basers are ideal support. I also like the 2/450 frequency, making this one the very best SAs for sure.
I think IT beats Brawling, but then, it is quite a bit more expensive. And Yami doesn't sound like too big a deal when you have the CC AO range of Kuro Ha and the charge range of YLW.
When I began reading this thread, my mind automatically began thinking about my favorite HK and HL pieces in general. What about the Paradise Vulture or the new HL Vulture from Wolf Strike? Either one would give you much better ranged combat options, and could still use the SA for brutal close combat strikes.
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Post by tjpandv on Oct 4, 2006 13:11:30 GMT -5
Still no Med IT for me (or ANY WS, for that matter!). If I did have it, I'd give this a go:
Kuro Ha/Tomark/IT
Yen Low Wang/Centrella
3 x HK Raiden BA
1 x HK Combat Tech
4 x Liao Trackbikes
HK/Liao SA
I went for Trackbikes rather than ATVs as their flamers on top of 2 damage, with the SA and the ability to hit green units for +1 gives them the potential for 5 damage in CC.
The Raiden are there as fast basers (and to keep the SA more robust) - although Liao Simians do appeal - more CC flamers!!
Roll on Wolf Strike...
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Post by asburygrad on Oct 4, 2006 15:15:29 GMT -5
I went for Trackbikes rather than ATVs as their flamers on top of 2 damage, with the SA and the ability to hit green units for +1 gives them the potential for 5 damage in CC. The Raiden are there as fast basers (and to keep the SA more robust) - although Liao Simians do appeal - more CC flamers!! Nice thoughts here! I hadn't considered the use of the HL/HK SA with flamers. Hmm . . . |
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Post by TrevortheAwesome on Oct 20, 2006 23:00:56 GMT -5
@asbury...
Worth noting is the fact that YLW has a 12 starting attack with Danai behind the controls. 12 IT is a great nutcracker.
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Post by asburygrad on Oct 23, 2006 15:02:39 GMT -5
@asbury... Worth noting is the fact that YLW has a 12 starting attack with Danai behind the controls. 12 IT is a great nutcracker. Thanks for that correction. I don't have YLW, and 12 IT is nice for a medium, especially with this SA. And David Wilson bugs me too! lol |
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Post by baw on Oct 24, 2006 7:14:05 GMT -5
These are some very interesting thoughts... I would very much choose the IT over brawling. I don't care how much damage you do if the hit doesn't connect I need IT on everything I play! |
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Post by elite130 on Oct 24, 2006 16:18:41 GMT -5
I agree.
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Post by tjpandv on Feb 15, 2007 4:20:20 GMT -5
I had been looking at pre-AOD pieces for this army but I'd better start excluding these and adding in post AoD legal pieces. Thanks to Brinxter for mentioning the values of BAP over IT...  HK/HL SA Kuro Ha/Tomark/BAP Centurion/YLW/BAP 3 x HK ATVS 3 x HL Simian BA Corrosive Atmosphere Dust Storm Caverns Mission tbc Not a lot for your 600 points but both you benefit from the effects of 2 BAPs that will stack. if Kuro Ha leads the attack, she gets an AV of 12 and if YLW comes in to join her, she'll arrive with an AV of 14. If you can catch SAD with your Corrosive Atmosphere, it could be "Good Night Vienna" for the Wolf Hunter. Dust Storm and Caverns are there for Shiros long-ranged shooters. Still struggling with the balance of a Jack army and I feel that a lot of this year's armies will be anti-SAD in nature. This type of build looks a good all-rounder. |
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Post by elite130 on Feb 15, 2007 10:31:13 GMT -5
My version
Kuro Ha + Pilot + IT
YLW + Pilot + IT
2 HK Tbirds
2 Liao Tbirds
1 HK Raiden
Liao HK SA
But I find I dont like the SA and KH dies after 10 is to fragile for me.
While YLW drops as a very hvy stone in targeting after some damage.
Regards
E130
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Post by brinxter on Feb 16, 2007 0:08:50 GMT -5
Ive played against this type of army with a SAD variant of my own, and i think that unless the opposing player goes for the 22" CCAO with KH and nails that 13 SAD is going to come out ontop.
And as Elite said, YLW has a really rapidly declining AV.
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