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Origins
Jul 6, 2005 20:04:50 GMT -5
Post by Zxqueb on Jul 6, 2005 20:04:50 GMT -5
The PCs I used:
Barrens -- Keeping black rose and ECM mechs from hiding is huge. (used in a game against double tank drop because I had nothing else left!)
Jungle -- Ditto (Used in a game vs black rose)
Desert Wastes -- Cancels out Subzero temperatures which REALLY hurts my army. It can also hurt mech armies a bit. (used in a game against a shiro -- my opponent actually DID try to use Subzero on me)
Perfect day - For when the terrain needs to stay just so... (used against Chikako W/ ECM.)
As far as seeing armies that were cool...
I like the idea of Shiro with concussion ammo as an anti-tank drop army. Still, they are easy to shut down with fast basers like my CBA drop. Once the ability to indirect is gone, I can outdistance their range with my tank drop.
I was surprised to see how many Shiros and black roses were being played. I think B. Rose is a good, fun piece, but I don't really think MDFA is as workable in competitive games as it is too easily shut down.
I still think Chikako is the most competitive big mech with the Rokurokubis being the most competitive small mech (in conjuntion with a solid supporting army). Nothing I saw at nationals changed that opinion for me.
Z
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Post by warlord1985 on Jul 8, 2005 3:36:39 GMT -5
Baw: You'll need all the luck you can get, DragonDawg is no slacker when it comes to line-stepping on the big names, he is nationals champ for a reason. MONKEY BUSINESS!!!
Z: I thought that the Black Rose's armies were a nice idea. The old Shrike, Shone Roshak, was a definite force back in Falcon's Prey. I think Malvina is quite possible 450. The shiro's however I did face a bit at Origins, and found them one trick pony's althought I did face was Yami 3 times. I think once the set has time to settle, a solid Shiro force will unfold (I have one in mind soon for myself!).
-W
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Origins
Jul 9, 2005 16:34:41 GMT -5
Post by Zxqueb on Jul 9, 2005 16:34:41 GMT -5
W-
Well, maybe. Black rose has a huge attack / defense + the capability to MDFA, which is nice. Against an army with fast basers, it tends to get outranged and outgunned. Against tank drop in 450, it doesn't fare well at all.
Shiro is an interesting mech. But again, it can be based and tagged at +18 range with a tank drop. Now that things seem to be moving toward 600 pt games, they will be more viable, I suppose.
Z
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Origins
Jul 9, 2005 19:37:01 GMT -5
Post by warlord1985 on Jul 9, 2005 19:37:01 GMT -5
One thing that I really can't get off my mind is the Unique shiro and his pilot. The unique w/pilot grants the following: Special Ability: ABOVE AND BEYOND (optional) After resolving an order given to this unit, give it a second order. After resolving the second order, deal 2 pushing damage to this unit in addition to any other damage dealt as a result of the second order. This unit also gains 1 heat in addition to any other heat generated by the second order.
I deeply believe this has obscene potential. Sure, after the second order, you hurt yourself and definetly have potential of blowing up or worse, but still, the ability to run across the board and attack in the same turn, or assault order around a wall and then take a normal shot. It just begs abuse me. However, the bad thing is the cost. At 295 combined with Pilot and Mech, not even gear, its also obscenely expensive. Therefore, I'm also left with the problem that its way too many points for 450, at least most of me thinks that. Considering that he only has a 21 Def, and that Concussion Ammo is 24 points for more effective offense, and that IT is 44 points. I really think that 600 would be his best bet, that with 2 Rokurokubis and some nice support, IE Dragons Fury ATV's and Arty, I think it could work.
-W
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Origins
Jul 9, 2005 20:21:58 GMT -5
Post by RoyalScion on Jul 9, 2005 20:21:58 GMT -5
Personally, I really prefer the LE Shiro (Kaminari) w/ pilot. Not only does it take care of one of the major weaknesses of the Shiro (basing) it also has large damage potential, 5 AP at 18 is nothing to sneeze at. Now, that Shiro is a lot of points as well and must be combined with some other gear to alleviate the poor attack (at start) and defense values. I would suggest IT to have a greater chance of hitting something. IMHO, it is much more efficient than "Hashira" because Hashira is inferior to the other Shiros in almost every way, and I don't like reliance on pilot abilities, especially since Sutoku's "Above and Beyond" is the only thing working in its favor. Hashira also has poor attack and defense values for such a huge point sink. At starting click, it has 10 attack. wow. You'll never be able to reliably hit (or maybe even hit at all) a RHDM. Granted, IT can alleviate some of the attack woes, but that turns it into even an more expensive point sink. Personally, I would rather go with the other shiros to leave less to chance, because even in a 600 pt. game "Hashira" with pilot woudl still represent half your battleforce. I'm not sold on it. And if you run 2 rokurokubis w/ pilots, you won't have very many if any points left for other support.
Just my 2 cents worth. (or is it 1?)
However, I do find tons of worth in Concussion ammo. this gear seems to be a phenomenal piece of gear to me. It could make a decent counter to certain army builds.
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Origins
Jul 9, 2005 22:01:25 GMT -5
Post by Zxqueb on Jul 9, 2005 22:01:25 GMT -5
While I tend to agree with RS about Kaminari being a points sink, I also see the benefit to using his special ability to get better and lay some waste... especially if your opponent has a big mech. There would be really nowhere they could run.
So I started messing around with an army build. Maybe you could tweak it and give it a shot, W.
DF/ SC SA 40
House Kurita Shiro - 'Hashira' 254 ---Katsuro Sutoko 41 ---Improved Targeting 44
Dragon's Fury Garrot Super-Heavy Transport 33 ---Dragon's Fury Tokugawa Heavy Tank 60
Dragon's Fury Scout ATV Squad x4 14 (56)
Spirit Cats Sylph Battle Armor 26
Spirit Cats Sylph Battle Armor 26
Spirit Cats Undine Battle Armor 20
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Origins
Jul 9, 2005 23:21:50 GMT -5
Post by warlord1985 on Jul 9, 2005 23:21:50 GMT -5
Hmm, that build looks rather strong. The tokugawa is strong piece that could help force the opponents hand. A 9 with IT and an 11 with Homing Beacon, improving the odds of tagging the enemy for the shot with Hashira. The Sylphs I love to death, I just wish my faction had some. The undine I assume is just for filler and basing. The alliance really helps nullify any bad terrain they may place, and allows you to place terrain without fear of reprecussion for hinderance sake. The only I don't like about the Tank is its range. 20 isn't bad for a TD, but a 22 would make me happier in my pants. I could play that army tomorow as I was looking through my pieces for the Storyline, unfortunately I don't own the infantry, as craig ganks any SC stuff I get :"hey lets trade, oh, your just going to take that, I see...." That builds seems very stable to me, the ATV's succesfully tie down anything rotten on the opponents side, and their side becomes your side after a full walk straight forward pretty much. I like it, nice job Z, once I get the pieces that will be a nice test for me to change up my RotS domination.
-W
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Origins
Jul 10, 2005 0:14:24 GMT -5
Post by RoyalScion on Jul 10, 2005 0:14:24 GMT -5
On the flip side.... I think this army will have a weakness to fast basing as well. There isn't much for antipersonnel in that army, and since the shiro has a minimum range of 4 if the enemy brings ATVs you're going to have a hard time blasting them off, considering the only other ballistic attack you have is the Tokugawa in the Garrot.... and I don't think it's too efficient to drop a Tokugawa to shoot ATVs. Instead of the Garrot + Tokugawa.... I dunno this army desperately needs anti-ATV in my opinion.... try a DF Sekhmet (although those aren't too good). I dunno... none of these factions (DF, SC, or Kurita) have an especially efficient infantry waster for the points. I would love to put in a DF Mars at least... but I can't because not enough pointage.
Any ideas?
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Origins
Jul 10, 2005 8:27:09 GMT -5
Post by Zxqueb on Jul 10, 2005 8:27:09 GMT -5
RS,
Well... Yes and no. I don't see the army as being TOO vulnerable to basers. You can pull the TD to cruising or quickly move it to where it can't be based. The mech can take to water pretty quickly and have a dominant position on the board without fear of atvs. Really, the army is made to speed forward quickly and can ignore atvs for the most part.
If you want to drop the undine (which is there for the grapple--hold something in place while your Shiro backs off for a ranged shot), you can trade up for two DF gun nests 10(20) or a DF PAL suit (17), both of which have AnP.
Z
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Origins
Jul 10, 2005 18:49:19 GMT -5
Post by RoyalScion on Jul 10, 2005 18:49:19 GMT -5
Please no DF Pal suits.... sorry I hate those things.... 4 inch range is insulting... even for a DF player I do enjoy the SC Undines though.... good grapple infantry. hmm... I wish "Hashira" had better attack... then I would put Artemis IV Fire Control to really waste some stuff I would love to suggest something else... but I don't really want to get rid of the DF/SC SA... because thats a good SA to use with the extreme range of the Shiros. They need a towed PPC for energy heavy factions
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Origins
Jul 11, 2005 9:07:03 GMT -5
Post by baw on Jul 11, 2005 9:07:03 GMT -5
I like kaminara.. I pulled one in a sealed.. and everybody playing GROANED Heat dial is a little touch but 5 AP at 18" is worth looking at. Your build is an interesting one. It definitely has some potential to cause grief. baw
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Origins
Jul 11, 2005 9:37:16 GMT -5
Post by Zxqueb on Jul 11, 2005 9:37:16 GMT -5
As a potential revision of the army, which seems to work better as a conhesive force, but will have to be careful about breaking the alliance...
DF/ SC SA 40
House Kurita Shiro - 'Hashira' 254 ---Katsuro Sutoko 41 ---Improved Targeting 44
Dragon's Fury Garrot Super-Heavy Transport 33 ---Dragon's Fury Tokugawa Heavy Tank 60
Dragon's Fury Scout ATV Squad x4 14 (56)
Spirit Cats Sylph Battle Armor 26
Spirit Cats Saxon 23 -- DF Salamander 22
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Origins
Jul 11, 2005 9:42:50 GMT -5
Post by baw on Jul 11, 2005 9:42:50 GMT -5
yes I was considering that when I was looking at the army. it is somewhat fragile at the alliance being broken. But Sylphs can run away from people pretty fast baw
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Origins
Jul 11, 2005 9:45:50 GMT -5
Post by Zxqueb on Jul 11, 2005 9:45:50 GMT -5
Yep! And really, the alliance doesn't need to be around forever, just enough to get that initial solid hit. If you have to shoot through walls after the alliance is broken, you can always drop the Tokugawa and hit with homing beacon.
Z
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Origins
Jul 11, 2005 9:56:36 GMT -5
Post by baw on Jul 11, 2005 9:56:36 GMT -5
I saw that tokugawa and I just saw an 11 attack.. The added benefit of Homing beacon is pretty significant! The garrots were always a little fragile for my liking.. If they were on the ground they were charge bait in the air AO would get them too quickly In this army you don't have any choice though They should work ok!
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