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Post by tjpandv on Feb 2, 2007 16:21:02 GMT -5
Yep, I do think Corrosive beats Tremors. I'm not planning on playing either build any time soon though . . . Out of curiosity (and nearly on-topic, lol) - which do you think is easier in tournament play: keeping blocking terrain in play, or getting rid of it? In other words, is it easier for armies running Jack to keep that needed blocking, or is it easier for anti-Jack armies to clear it (change it to hindering or water, remove all terrain, etc)? Lets assume its a 4 round event and you must play at least 1 Mission. Of the 3 PCCs you have to choose from, Perfect Day is likely to be one of them, leaving you with just 2 to select. To keep blocking, you need to guard against: Barrens, Jungle, Beach, Craters, Tornado. I'm not sure how many of these PCCs are that useful to ANY army build. I think everyone likes something to hide behind and Barrens and Craters will wipe everything off. Tornado and Jungle will provide a tree-hugger with plenty of cover and only JJ-equipped (or mechless armies) will want to consider Beach. Barrens is particularly powerful though - once the terrain is removed, then there's nothing left for a card like Moutnain Range or Urban to turn back into Blocking. So, plenty of options to remove blocking, but you'll need an army build that thrives in open spaces or hindering and can make the most of long firing ranges (RHD Kodiak?). To tranform the battlefield into "Blocking Heaven" you'll need: Mountain Range or Urban. Of the two, I think Urban is the more powerful. I realise its cancelled by Jungle - but I'm not sure how often Jungle is played at events (maybe the new GF9 Xanthos may change that). However, its starts with "U" and is pretty late in the alphabet and I think it outscores Mountain Range for that reason. You can, of course, take both but Sensor Echoes is one to think about if you feel threatend by Barrens. The reason I think that its easier to keep blocking, rather than removing it is that very few armies feel at home without some sort of blocking on the table (maybe a Peacemaker build is the exception). Therefore, one of the strengths of a Jack build is the fact that both players are likely to want blocking, but Jack will be the one to benefit from it.
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Post by tjpandv on Feb 2, 2007 16:22:40 GMT -5
Forgot to mention about Corrosive versus Tremors. The only downside to Corrosive is that it can be cancelled by Urban. CT can only be cancelled by Perfect Day.
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Post by tjpandv on Feb 5, 2007 8:14:25 GMT -5
Seeing as Jack and Julz won't be going away for the forseeable future, I was looking through Battleplanner the other day to see what mech would make the best support piece for Jack. It may take a little while to get through the analysis but I thought I'd go from Light through to Assault Class. (I hope Elite can bear with me before I announce Alpha as the best mech.. ). I think that a good support mech for Jack needs a long ballistic range, good AV and good damage. In addition, armour to prevent damage by TTLs is a bonus as is a high DV (although the fact you're behind blocking does make up for this). Similarly, electric camo is also useful. Light Mechs can offer range and can also provide a good AV. Thier damage output is usually low and the short dial means that this decreases rapidly and only lasts for half a dozen clicks before reducing to zero. However, they do offer a cheap alternative. So, assuming that eadch mech has a 2-2-0 pilot and IT fitted (41 points of CECs), here are some of the options (starting with the cheapest points value first): WH Mjolnir, 11IT, 0-12 range ( AO range 18 inches), 4 damage with Arm P, React armour. Anubis Spot, 11IT, 4-12 range ( AO range 18 inches), 3 damage with Artemis. WH Anubis, 11IT, 2-14 range ( AO range 20 inches), 3 damage with Arm P, React arm. Wulfen Marrow, 11IT, 0-16 ( AO range 22 inches), 3 damage. ROTS Hellion, 12IT, 2-14 range ( AO range 20 inches), 2 damage. Davion Raven, 11IT, 4-14 ( AO range 20 inches), 3 damage with Arm P. Sparky Jackalope, 11IT, 0-16 range ( AO range 23 inches), 2 damage, AAMS. Okami Rokurokubi, 11 IT, 3-14 range ( AO range 20 inches), 2 damage, React armour. Sei Gi okurokubi, 11IT, 3-14 range ( AO range 20 inches), 2 damage with Arm P, Hard armour. Raven Magister, 11 IT, 2-14 range ( AO range 20 inches), 2 damage. Kitfox Clan Hell Horses, 11IT, 2-14 range ( AO range 20 inches), 3 damage with Arm P (points value..?). A couple of comments, whilst Magister is easliy the most expensive mech, it already has IT and could easliy fit E Camo for a 176 points value. Also, a number of mechs do have Homing Beacon which may be useful once your shooter is in position. The Marrow Wulfen stands out with its range and ability to pierce even Hardened Armour. Sparky also has the range, albeit with less damage - the AAMS is an interesting piece of equipment for an army build that may well be subject to indirect fire. I think that Arm P is a must for a light mech in order for it to make the damage count. To that end, I think the choice comes down to: Sei Gi WH Anubis WH Mjolnir Kitfox (what is this mech..?) Davion Raven For all round ability, the WH Mjolnir and Anubis are hard to beat. Sei Gi has other talents but is expensive and I would expect that the Kitfox is also going to be pricey. As Elite has asked me to add in the AO ranges, you can see that Sparky and the Marrow Wulfen do provide a significant AO range that would allow you to outrange many opponents. With a base attack of 11 but a LONG range, we could be looking at the IT versus C3i debate. So, for 138 points for the Mjolnir or 149 for the Anubis, you can get a cheap mech to support Jack for half the price of some heavies or assaults. Next up its the mediums...
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Post by brinxter on Feb 5, 2007 11:12:07 GMT -5
If you want some info about the Kitfox: www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=BF022Its a website made and maintained by Cavingjan, not as versatile as the old MW unit database, but not to bad. (Oh btw, has anyone got a spare PW battleforce set they might want to part with? )
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Post by tjpandv on Feb 5, 2007 16:05:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the pointer for the Mech - I had seen it before. Is this some new name for an Uller?
I've just been going through the Mediums as potential partners for Jack. Not good I'm afraid. I'll list some of the candiates but they aren't exactly stellar - especially when you think that a +2 attack pilot and IT comes to 54 points in this class. They're listed with the cheapest first.
Steel Wolves Thunderfox, 11IT, 0-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 4 damage.
Bartelby, 11IT, 0-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 4 damage.
Liao Avalanche, 11IT, 2-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 4 damage.
Liao Griffin, 11IT, 0-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 3 damage with Artemis. HS Raptor, 11IT, 0-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 3 damage with Arm P.
Griffin Stilhetto, 10IT, 2-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 4 damage, React Armour.
CW Griffin, 11IT, 0-16 range (AO range 21 inches), 4 damage with Artemis.
HS Griffin, 12IT, 2-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 4 damage with Arm P.
Scion Eisenfaust, 12IT, 2-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 4 damage.
Gyrfalcon V2M, 12IT, 2-16 range (AO range 21 inches), 3 damage with Arm P.
They all match the lights for AV and range and, to be fair, do deal out more damage. However, the cheapest is 130 points and the last 2 come in at 165 and 185 points respectively - over 200 points for the mech and CECs. Also, very few have Evade and therefore their DVs are very similar to lights that are equipped with Evade on the dial.
THE CW and HS Griffins deserve a mention, as does the Liao Avalnche - which also has Homing Beacon for a second shot. The cheapest (and oldest) of the lot, the SW Thunderfox, looks a real bargain and that Anti Pers could be a nasty shock for any TTL/Combat Tech formation...
Elite asked for the AO ranges and these also make for poor reading. The lower speeds of the Medium Mechs mean that the AO ranges are actually lower that the Light Mechs. Only the VERY expensive Gyrfalcon comes close to top tier - but at a huge points sink.
All in all, not impressive which will come as no suprised when the best Mech in this class (Kuro Ha) has only a 10 inch range.
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Post by brinxter on Feb 5, 2007 16:27:54 GMT -5
The Kitfox is the clan designation for the mech the Innersphere calls the Uller
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Post by tjpandv on Feb 5, 2007 17:19:50 GMT -5
The Kitfox is the clan designation for the mech the Innersphere calls the Uller And if I remember back to my Latin lessons at school, the word Uller is derived from the ancient Roman for "sub-optimal"... ;D
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Post by elite130 on Feb 5, 2007 18:11:02 GMT -5
IfI might make a suggestion good TJ, put the AO ranges in there as well.
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Post by tjpandv on Feb 6, 2007 9:31:48 GMT -5
IfI might make a suggestion good TJ, put the AO ranges in there as well. Done for lights and mediums and I'll ad this in for the heavies. Any votes for Sparky or the CW Marrow?
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Post by elite130 on Feb 7, 2007 6:20:25 GMT -5
You want votes ?
I am just reading your thoughts. Preparing myself for when next we meet. If I hear the sounds from rearly right you guys are playing serious now....
Looking forward to the hvy bit.
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Post by tjpandv on Feb 7, 2007 17:33:47 GMT -5
OK, here we go for the heavies. Same rules (2-2-1 pilot fitted with IT, so that's over 70 points of CECs). Cheapest first - and that is Alpha that's first up...
Alpha Mangonel, 12IT, 2-16 range (AO range 21 inches), 5 damage with Arm P.
Shen Yi Cornerstone, 12IT, 4-14 range (AO range ?19 inches), 4 damage, Hvy armour.
ROTS Scourge, 11 IT, 0-14 range (AO range 20 inches), 4 damage, Hvy armour.
Clan Hell's Horses Timberwolf, 11 IT, 4-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 4 damage with Artemis, Hvy armour.
WH Thor, 11IT, 2-16 range (AO range 21 inches), 5 damage with Arm P, Hardened armour.
ROTS Mangonel, 11IT, 2-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 6 damage.
CJF Thor, 12IT, 2-14 range (AO range 20 inches), 4 damage.
Seka's Pride, 12IT, 0-12 range (AO range 17 inches), 5 damage with Arm P.
Warwolf Reaver, 12 IT, 0-16 range (AO range 21 inches), 4 damage with Arm P, AAMS fitted.
Tremor Thor, 12IT, 4-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 6 damage, Electric Camo fitted.
CW Thor, 12-13IT, 2-16 range (AO range 21 inches), 5 damage with Arm P, Reactive armour.
CW Vulture, 12 IT, 0-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 5 damage with Arm P, Hvy armour.
Dirty Bird Vulture, 12IT, 2-14 range (AO range 19 inches), 5 damage with Arm P, Hvy armour.
Kaminari Shiro, 11IT, 4-18 range (AO range 23 inches), 5 damage with Arm P, Hardened armour.
At long last, a class that delivers big damage, big range and high AVs. A lot more armour to beat off TTL POGs and a lot more armour piercing as well.
I think the Warwolfs and the Thors deserve a lot of attention. They bring good AVs, long ranges, big damage as well as armour or AAMS.
Point for point Alpha is probably the one to beat in this class and her heat dial perhaps compensates for her having to dodge the odd POG. That's not to say that its the best out there if you're willing to go for an armoured mech or one with a higher DV or even a WH one that can make use of Merc FP.
Tremor's Electronic Camo is certainly worth another look and, of course, Kaminari - although the most expensive - has an amazing combination of range and damage.
I will take a look at the Assaults but their lack of IT is going to be a real drawback.
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Post by elite130 on Feb 8, 2007 7:00:38 GMT -5
I miss a 22 inch hvy.....
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Post by asburygrad on Feb 8, 2007 11:14:32 GMT -5
Any votes for Sparky or the CW Marrow? I would give Marrow some thought, as it has 3 damage and Agility, and Evade. 2 damage on Sparky is just too low.
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Post by tjpandv on Feb 10, 2007 8:27:43 GMT -5
Any votes for Sparky or the CW Marrow? I would give Marrow some thought, as it has 3 damage and Agility, and Evade. 2 damage on Sparky is just too low. Marrow could be a cheap support piece to Jack - perhaps with another shooter in support? Anywa, here is the final category - the Assaults. No IT to fit here but I have assumed that the pilot is a 2-2-1. Cheapest of the lot - Chikako... Chikako Xanthos, 12 AV, 2-14 range ( 19 inch Assault Order), 5 damage. Kingslayer Xanthos, 12 AV, 0-14 range ( 19 inch Assault Order), 5 damage with Arm P. Persuader Cygnus, 12AV, 2-14 range ( 19 inch Assault Order), 4 damage. Buzzkill Battlemaster, 12 AV, 2-14 range ( 18 inch Assault Order), 4 damage with Artemis. ROTS Malice, 12 AV, 3-16 range ( 20 inch Assault Order), 6 damage with Arm P. RHD Kodiak, 12 AV, 2-14 range ( 19 inch Assault Order), 6 damage, Hvy armour. Headmaster Atlas, 12 AV,0-14 ( 18 inch Assault Order), 5 damage, Hardened armour. Sugar Rush Atlas, 12 AV, 4-14 range ( 18 inch Assault Order), 5 damage with Arm P, Hardened armour. Swan Marauder, 12 AV, 2-14 ( 18 inch Assault Order), 4 damage, Hvy armour. Solitude Atlas, 12/13 AV, 2-14 ( 18 inch Assault Order), ? damage, Hardened armour. Hammerfall Atlas, 13 AV, 4-14 ( 18 inch Assault Range), 6 damage, Hardened armour. So, a lack of IT and decent assault ranges, coupled with their cost, probably discount this class from making the grade. The ROTS Malice is a dangerous piece but doubtless has a heat dial that makes it difficult to push. The Xanthoseseses come out pretty well and the RHD Kodiak and Persuader remain dangerous pieces - full stop. Persuader shooting through blocking with Jack repairing would be nasty. The lack of IT does allow cheaper CEC options to be taken such as Improved Tracking and Coolant Pod. I just can't help feel that there are better AVs and better AO ranges to be had in the other classes. One thing I haven't looke at here is the Pilot Abilities. Very often, maximising an AV or an AO range will mean that you can't take the proper pilot. However, there may be times when you could do that. For example, Buzzkill's pilot has a 2-2-0 rating but comes with the ability to give a token/click of heat to a target. That could be a ral bonus if you're sat behind blocking and your nearest threat gets danaged and becomes pushed/that bit hotter. I'll have to look at some of the Uniques on these lists to see if their pilot abilities make up for deficiencies elsewhere.
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Post by asburygrad on Feb 12, 2007 11:05:02 GMT -5
I'll have to look at some of the Uniques on these lists to see if their pilot abilities make up for deficiencies elsewhere. I was just about to point out that Peacemaker's pilot ability allows it to AO at a range of 22 inches. Only 3 damage, but still . . .
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