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Post by Zxqueb on Nov 14, 2006 11:36:13 GMT -5
I was reading about a recent dreamblade 1K in which the following situation occured: Two players on the same "team" (as well as very close friends) were playing against each other in the last game of the regular tournament. Player #1 was undefeated and had a spot in the top 4, win or lose. The other player was on the cusp. If he won, he would likely be in the top 4. If not, he would certainly be out of the running. That being the case, player #1 conceeded to player #2 who then made the top 4 (along with another member of their team.) What do you think about that? It's interesting to me coming from a mechwarrior background where there is no "scooping" allowed (and those of you at MW Worlds this year know how I feel about that! ). I'm sure this could happen in MW too if the higher ranked player just threw the game (giving rear arc shots, never attacking, etc). According to DCI tournament regulations, the players acted within the bounds of the tournament rules. But is what they did ethical? What do you think about that sort of "fixing" things at a high level if it provides your friends with top spots? What about if it provides you with better matchups? Discuss! Z
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Post by vladdswrath on Nov 14, 2006 23:43:32 GMT -5
I would rather it be out in the open then under the table. Let's face it, who would you rather make the top four, a friend and teammate (who probably worked very hard to help you get to the final four) or a total stranger. Ethics aside, I am sure most of us would choose the friend. This whole thing got started in Magic, L5R and other big prize money games, when gamers who for the most part are not high rollers, realized that they could guarentee themselves more money by accepting a draw.
For example, A first place finish at Magic worlds pays out $50,000 and second place $25,000. If you concede to the other player under the assumption that you will split the prize money, you make yourself 37,500 dollars. I for one would take the guarenteed money!
Anyway, in order to cut down on backroom dealing and whispers of fraud, most money games allow for team play and concessions. I personally don't mind, as I said it I'd prefer it out in the open.
-vladd
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Post by warlord1985 on Nov 15, 2006 10:37:49 GMT -5
Dude, everyones done what you speak of. I got Xmike to concede a game to me in Mech so I could get a prize and Young Steve wouldn't. I seem to remember a story between Vlad and Southpaw where they took a prize out of Halofurry's hands at Oberlin. We've all done the shadyness. In the words of a wise Heroclix player "don't sh*t a sh*tter".
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Post by Zxqueb on Nov 15, 2006 10:45:16 GMT -5
I guess I didn't realize that it was a part of tournaments. I have no problem with scooping, especially when the game is clearly over. But conceeding a game simply to alter the tournament itself seems a bit much to me.
I've not done the shadyness, and will likely never do so. Seems unethical somehow to me, even given the fact that it's technically legal in DCI tournaments.
Z
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Post by warlord1985 on Nov 15, 2006 10:48:47 GMT -5
Scooping is one thing. Conceding is another. When Mike and I played we were basically fighting to a stand still, I'd kill a piece he'd kill a piece). When we were left to our last hurt assault mechs destroying each other it was question of it I want first or second. We all got prizes, I just got what I wanted. Scooping SHOULD BE ALLOWED in all games. We've had this arguement on boards before though. And if you want to be upset with me for ONE incident, I direct you to the Furry's.
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Post by Zxqueb on Nov 15, 2006 12:02:01 GMT -5
Heh heh.
I'm certainly not upset with you for any reason. That sort of "metagaming" is above and beyond my realm of experience. I just found the whole question interesting as it is not something I've given any thought to.
I'm interested in particular in the opinions of those people who play outside the "big money" tournaments. So you mech players, what do you think?
Z
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Post by southpaw13 on Nov 15, 2006 16:31:21 GMT -5
Well, you know my opinion. I don't have a problem with it. Scooping for a loss in a ranked system has it's own penalties. But I have to work in a system that was already built. At least this summer we were able to make a change for the betterment of the tournament scene.
And yes, it was unethical to do what we did back when the Furries were around. I guess we believed (and maybe still do) that ethics didn't apply because of who we were affecting.
Knowing what I know now, if I were in the same situation, would I have still done the same thing? You bet your ass. And yes you can call me biased in THAT situation. No, I'm not bitter at all. LOL
SP13
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Post by vladdswrath on Nov 15, 2006 17:41:35 GMT -5
I seem to remember a story between Vlad and Southpaw where they took a prize out of Halofurry's hands at Oberlin. Well since Dave has decided to point fingers and name names (you really need to work on your diplomacy skills dude) I suppose a little explanation is due before Southpaw and I get our names too mucked up This was more a case of fighting fire with fire than unethical fradulent behavior. The tournament in question was one of the nationals qualifiers for Wizard World Philly. At the time, you could play in and win as many qualifiers as you wanted. Halofurry and his "team" openly stated they were going to play in every tournament in a 100 mile radius (and they did) to knockout competition (read: us) and prevent anyone else from going to Philly. Lovely eh? On top of this, all of our regular players at Oberlin who were interested in going to Philly had already won an event (legitimately) and had already won qualifiers. Only Postman Steve did not, but he could not go to Philly anyway (no harm, no foul) and he fully knew the intention of the nights tournament was to get me in. As it were, I still had to win legitimate games early to be in a position to have the finals game more or less conceded to me. We did not intend to ruin other unaffiliated player's chances (this would be difficult anyway if they just beat me in the early rounds). But as it were, the semi-final rounds we simply had team furry vs. team Matrix...and thus the gloves were off ;D After all, they were there to do it to us! Now by strict ethical code, two wrongs don't make a right...but I sure as heck didn't lose any sleep over it. Other considerations, for wrong or right, were simply that a trip to Philly is not cheap. The more of us that went, the better. It is cheaper to travel with a group than alone. Not to mention a ton more fun. If Southpaw had been the only one to win, he may not have gone at all. All of these, I feel are very good reasons to form a team. Getting to the world championship level takes a ton of time, money, and commitment. Many world class decks cost hundreds of dollars to assemble. If prize money is involved, many teams pool resources, as well as strategies and practice time. They then split their winnings as a team. A fantastic reason to concede your teammate into the finals. Don't forget, even with a concession from a teammate, the player must win quite a few legitimate matches to get themselves in a position to make it to the finals. They certainly have some credibility in being there... On a related note, Z's original post had to do with someone in the finals helping another player get there. My question for Z is this: If Z was trying to qualify for worlds and was 7-2 after day two and on the cusp of elimination and I was 5-4 (out of contention) and due to limited eligible match-ups we ended up playing each other in the last round, would you honestly want me to play strong and possibly beat you? What if we had traveled all the way to Gen Con So Cal to play, and the prize money for making day 3 was a minimum of $1000, enough to pay for the trip...? -Vladd
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Post by warlord1985 on Nov 15, 2006 17:59:47 GMT -5
Sheesh dude, I don't have time to read that long post at the last minute of work. Sometimes simplicity is best.
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Post by Zxqueb on Nov 15, 2006 18:54:01 GMT -5
If Z was trying to qualify for worlds and was 7-2 after day two and on the cusp of elimination and I was 5-4 (out of contention) and due to limited eligible match-ups we ended up playing each other in the last round, would you honestly want me to play strong and possibly beat you? I found the flaw in your argument! At any rate, you are right. I wouldn't want you to try to win, but I certainly wouldn't fault you for playing against me like you meant it. And if the roles were reversed, I could probably be talked into conceeding to you as well (mostly so I didn't hear you complain all the way back from california ;D )!
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Post by warlord1985 on Nov 15, 2006 19:12:39 GMT -5
Conceding to a teammate=ok Conceding to scoop=ok Conceding to skew standings that you are legitamtely trying to skew=priceless....not so ok
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Post by Zxqueb on Mar 29, 2007 9:33:43 GMT -5
I've not done the shadyness, and will likely never do so. Seems unethical somehow to me, even given the fact that it's technically legal in DCI tournaments. Z Well this is all out the window now. Thanks to my being able to scoop, Jeff got his points for gencon. And I don't feel at all bad about it. Neat. Let's hear it for working the system. Go digression.
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Post by warlord1985 on Apr 2, 2007 2:01:23 GMT -5
You digressed in your moral code. We truely are our team.
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Post by pipgamer on Apr 2, 2007 10:24:03 GMT -5
Well it looks like i'm getting into this conversation abit late, I was there in cinnci when Joe conceded to Charile so charlie got into top 4. Although this can be an irritation dreamblade the situation is alot worse in magic, since there are Intentional Draws (ID). What typically happens in alot of events is that the top 4 tables ID locking everyone else who who have a shot at the top 8 out. Fortunately this game dosn't award points for draws and thats never an issue.
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Post by warlord1985 on Apr 2, 2007 12:38:33 GMT -5
Thank god theres no way to draw. This game would come down to who could go up in wins faster with the top players always making the top tables by shenanigans.
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