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Post by tjpandv on May 19, 2006 10:04:45 GMT -5
Once the be all and end all of MW, set retirement has greatly limited the options for First Strike. Apart from the odd NightStalker than can charge in or a speedy Solitaire, the shooty option now rests with the ATVs. I'll assume that the weapon of choice is the 2 x HK and 1 x CNC - dealing either 2 energy or 1 ballistic. My son's army uses FP Davion ATVs and they can pack 3 clicks of damage once the FP is added!
So, we can't kill the target, so its has to be one that we can maim or wound sufficiently that it makes the remaining 49 minutes a LOT more comfortable. My short list is as follows:
WH R10 ICV - Very often deployed with its rear arc showing in order to load a tank. After 2 clicks of damage, its only 4 clicks to salvage.
WH Kelswa - Once your opponent sees your ATVs lined up for a shot on the R10, he has a couple of choices - deploy the Kelswa away from the R10 or use the Kelswa as a barrier to your ATVs. If its the latter, he's still given you a decent target, but its a lot harder shot. The result could well be a Kelswa that is past its prime when it drops and is therefor MUCH less of a threat to your mech (esp if you've managed to put Nightfall into play).
Powerful Light Mech - I would class the CJF PH1 in this category, as well as the Twins. Taking 2 clicks out of either greatly reduces their effectiveness (PPC for the PH1 and evade on the Twin).
That's my top 3, the CJF Loki almost made it in but you have to balance the almost certain loss of 40 points of ATVs against a mere dent on a heavy mech.
Of course, with only 3 ATVs in an army, this tactic now becomes questionable. So what would you all do?
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Post by brinxter on May 20, 2006 7:36:29 GMT -5
I would take the shot against most of those, i would also do it to say Chikako, putting him two down (and a heat!) is worth it imho.
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Post by elite130 on May 20, 2006 12:23:34 GMT -5
First strike when yes when no ?
Hard to say depends on the army I am using and how I envision to beat my opponent. What ever you use to first strike with will be destroyed.
40 points on atv's maybe, depending what I am hitting.
100 points on a light, not me not ever.
Not sure of other options.
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Post by tjpandv on May 20, 2006 17:22:20 GMT -5
When you are given the chance to use first strike, it is very tempting to use it. As Elite says, whatever you commit will die and that is easy points for your opponent.
It is difficult to think that those ATVs that you sent froward to hurt a mech or a tank, may actually be very useful mid-game when you need basers and blockers.
First strike is a great way to start the game, but after 30 minutes, you may be regretting your decision...
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Post by baw on May 20, 2006 22:57:01 GMT -5
I am much more reluctant to use first strike. It can easily put you in the hole and having to fight your way out.
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thekaiser
Amphibious APC
Star Colonel
Posts: 149
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Post by thekaiser on May 26, 2006 16:28:19 GMT -5
Truthfully, despite playing HK and CNC I do nut use ATVs much (Do not have any, anyway), and first strike for me often consists of the first AO made by one player or the other.
But for countering ATVs, I usually just use my 'mechs to shoot at htem the first turn and such. My opponents never really shoot with them, just base. Eh, not really competitive where I play then, I suppose.
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Post by tjpandv on May 26, 2006 18:19:16 GMT -5
I think the deal with first strike using those ATVs is that if you have a vulnerable piece in your army (say, a CJF PH1), then you need to be aware that if your opponent is toting 2 HK and a CNC ATV and he gets to be player 1, then your mech is in danger.
There are then measures you can take to stop the first strike. As he is player 1, then you're player 2 - you get to place the first piece of terrain. Look for where the ATVs can infiltrate to (up to 24 inches) and where they can fire from (8 inches away). You'll see that the ATVs need to set up in a pretty restricted part of the table. By placing either blocking or water in that area, the ATVs can no longer infiltrate there. OK, so you're "wasting" your first piece of terrain, but you're also protecting one of your assets.
The other trick is to pack anti pers so that you can waste the ATV formation in 1 turn. Even a couple of WH Miniguns can do this for you.
Sacrificing ATVs in the first couple of turns is a gamble - a trade-off if you will. You loose 40 points but your opponent spends 1-2 turns eradicating them. You may have just bought yourself enough time to get the rest of your army up the table and into position.
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Post by brinxter on May 27, 2006 6:52:12 GMT -5
Ah, how i remember my first game against Mango I dropped my HL TGR out of a sprint on his Alpha, and had a critical hit Sadly it was the only thing i hit the entire game, but what an opener
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Post by baw on May 27, 2006 10:42:31 GMT -5
I concur with your assessment tjpandv. You really need a vulnerable target for the First strike. It is fairly risky in this environment. Although the good thing is.. If you have a few atvs and no first strike it is still always nice to have a few atv's hanging around they are very versatile!
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Post by tjpandv on Jun 21, 2006 9:57:11 GMT -5
Just thought I'd better add this to the list:
Alpha Mad Cat Kerensky HyperLaser
Should give Alpha a 10 inch infiltrate and a 23 inch assault range. Get a piece of water in the right place, and she'll stay pretty cool too.
I hope I'm right in thinking that as Kerensky's "With Avengance" ability doesn't allow you to use "Damage SE" - I assume that this includes Hyperlaser.
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Post by tjpandv on Jun 21, 2006 10:03:10 GMT -5
Just thought I'd better add this to the list: Alpha Mad Cat Kerensky HyperLaser Should give Alpha a 10 inch infiltrate and a 23 inch assault range. Get a piece of water in the right place, and she'll stay pretty cool too. I hope I'm right in thinking that as Kerensky's "With Avengance" ability doesn't allow you to use "Damage SE" - I assume that this includes Hyperlaser. Just to add that recruiting Kerensky to Liao/ROTS would allow her option of getting the first shot as part of a formation to overcome her low AV.
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Post by baw on Jun 21, 2006 19:02:12 GMT -5
The Alpha Madcat IV is too hard to prime in my opinion! How are you going to prime it to start using it?
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Post by tjpandv on Jun 22, 2006 2:59:15 GMT -5
The Alpha Madcat IV is too hard to prime in my opinion! How are you going to prime it to start using it? Good question! I was really just adding the combo onto the first strike list of options. I suppose SU infiltrate gets you 1 click in but your AV is still a dismal 8. I'm looking at Mechs that can fit into the ROTS/Liao SA and, although the Heat was not my first choice, the fact that this combination can offer a first strike option is probably a bonus rather than something to build your army around.
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Post by baw on Jun 22, 2006 10:45:57 GMT -5
I really don't care at all (actively dislike) the Madcat alpha. I played it in a sealed and almost lost with it trying to get it to its sweet spot. I will have to look and see if I can find a better unit for your plan
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Post by tjpandv on Jun 22, 2006 12:16:17 GMT -5
I think Tom is working on Esperanza with X Pulse...
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