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Post by asburygrad on Aug 31, 2006 16:59:54 GMT -5
I wanted to try this 600-pointer out soon:
Kaminari - Frihet Grad (0/2/1) - IT Jack - LE Jules w/ HK Recruit 3 HK ATV Squads HK Pride (+1 damage)
I have 22 points left over. I'm thinking about either Plasma Gun or Brawling on Jack, or a HK Shamash to help out the ATVs.
I think this is a solid army, but it depends on 3 ATVs to keep things based and off of the Shiro. I'm also worried that it does not deal damage quickly enough to handle an Ares.
Is this army worth working on, or should I trash it?
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Post by elite130 on Sept 1, 2006 6:12:09 GMT -5
6 damage first on the Ares. With Jack you should be able to deal this from behind blocking and placed right the Ares can only deal 2 damage indirect back. If you succeed in another 6 damage you have almost already won.
Yes the concept has a chance but you must play very defensivly not allowing any shot from the Ares till you are in position.
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Post by tjpandv on Sept 1, 2006 6:37:09 GMT -5
Watch out for the VC count. If you let the Ares kill 1 of your ATVs, you could well be behind on VC1 and VC2. You will now need to kill the Ares (lets assume its a 600 points build with no other figures) to win. You may not get the chance to hide behind blocking once the Ares player is up on VC1 and 2.
Using Jack and a shooter is a good system - esp if the Ares can't get at you. Its also a good combo against lots of other things, so should do well in a tournament as well as a one-off. Black armour is a good choice - only the Zeus has Arm P. One has streaks (which will also be affected by the armour) but the other has neither and will have to come around the blocking to get at you.
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Post by baw on Sept 1, 2006 7:25:45 GMT -5
Also PC's are going to make a big difference. You need the blocking and you have to watch your soft units. You are already starting 20 points down. Although I guess we aren't talking about only killing Ares. This army would work well versus a great number of armies. You have to be careful not to leave Jack Vulnerable. For 21 of 22 points you could put Decoy on Jack. That makes him a lot more survivable!
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Post by Zxqueb on Sept 1, 2006 9:50:22 GMT -5
Watch out for the VC count. If you let the Ares kill 1 of your ATVs, you could well be behind on VC1 and VC2. You will now need to kill the Ares (lets assume its a 600 points build with no other figures) to win. You may not get the chance to hide behind blocking once the Ares player is up on VC1 and 2. He's already going to have to kill an Ares with the Shiro setup since he will be behind on VC2 (unless he has a mission of some sort -- can't count on that, though -- a good ares Ares Mission choice is intercepted orders). Still, with an 18" range and IT + the ability to shoot through blocking, the ares will not be able to really run away too much as it's painfully slow. Turns should go fast. Your shiro should be able to positively massacre an ares in 50 minutes with no problem whatsoever.
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Post by asburygrad on Sept 1, 2006 11:38:20 GMT -5
I really appreciate all the advice, guys! I'm starting to feel better about this build.
To Baw: I thought the medium Decoy card was 30 points. Did I misread??
As for terrain and PCs - I don't believe that I will be facing multiple Ares in this tournament. Probably one at most. So I don't want to tool it to kill nothing BUT Ares; I just want to have a plan for it in case it shows up.
In most games, I figure that 18 range will really help, even if an opponent plays Barrens.
Last question: do I need the pride card, or is starting out right at 600 points more important?
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Post by elite130 on Sept 1, 2006 13:54:15 GMT -5
I would stay at 600 in order to be more responsive instead of being forced to act. Then again even Jack has some decent damage output with the HK FP.
Yes Medium Decoy = 30
It depends how you wish your army to act.
Good luck with it.
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Post by baw on Sept 2, 2006 11:44:46 GMT -5
Sorry. Shouldn't try to check points while I am at work I looked at Light Decoy. My mistake!
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Post by asburygrad on Sept 8, 2006 9:36:40 GMT -5
Seems like a post-mortem on this army is in order!
I decided on the following as the final build:
Kaminari w/ Plisskin + IT Jack w/ LE Julie (HK recruit) + Decoy HK Faction Pride HK Combat Technician
Total: 597
PCs: Perfect Day, Storm (both cancel Dust Storm), and Caverns (great fun with this army)
Why these choices? 1. Jack needs Decoy in order to live 2. Shiro and Jack both need the FP since they both drop to 2 damage early in the dial 3. I needed an infantry that could help out the Mechs, not just get killed. 4. Fast basers do nothing against an Ares, so a Combat Tech is better. 5. Most players at this venue play FP cards. So I didn't expect to be down by more than 3 VC 2 points.
I was expecting to play against only one other person of my skill level, and I was expecting Ares Mechs since the Officer's Club kits have arrived and this venue ran an Ares tournament just the day before. Instead, NO Ares at all! And two players of higher skill level than me showed up - one is ranked #1 in the state and #30 in the world!
First Round: Opponent had Esperanza w/ Frihet Grad, Duke w/ Frihet Grad, and ROTS Mjolnir with a 1/1/1 pilot. He forgot to bring his PC cards, and I played Caverns (to keep my Dust Storm cancelers in hand). This game was a slaughter, as he couldn't move fast enough to come around my H-shaped pieces of blocking terrain to fire at me. Jack lowered their defenses by 1, and Kaminari slammed the damage home. The Combat Tech ran in for some VC 3. I felt bad when the game was over in less than 15 minutes. 3 VCs.
Round 2: Peacemaker w/ Marcus + Coolant Pod, WH Mjolnir w/ Graves + Decoy, 4-5 ROTS ATVs, 2 Hi Shock Troopers, and ROTS FP (+1 attack). He played Dust Storm, and I countered with Storm - much to his surprise.
I knew I might face this army, but I thought that Kaminari with 11 IT could hit and rob the Malice of PD. Very early in the game, I took the shot. I needed to hit 13 - I AOed but Jack was within 6 inches of Peacemaker, negating the modifier. I rolled so low that IT could not get me to 13! Next turn, same thing, and another miss.
The whole game was downhill from there. The Mjolnir had 27 total defense plus Decoy vs range, which made it nearly unhittable. After Peacemaker and the Mjolnir nailed the Shiro, all it could do was charge - and it missed. Jack tried several times to CC the Mjolnir, and missed every attempt. End result: he wiped me out. No VCs.
Round 3: This was against a guy who just plays for fun, and his army showed it. He had a SH Griffin from Falcon's Prey, a BR Glory 3-tank formation, a lone WH Kelswa, JF Long Tom, and HS Centaur. I threw down my Perfect Day, and never learned what he was going to play. Behind blocking and with Jack's ability, Kaminari pretty much killed his whole army. I had some trouble hitting the Glorys in hindering terrain with 23 defense and Decoy, but it was just a matter of time. Each one needed a 15 to hit the Shiro, and could have dealt only 2 damage even if they hit (which they didn't). Jack ran in for some VC3. 3 VCs.
All in all, I liked the army and it ran very smoothly. The main things that I was worried about - facing an Ares, the infantry "filler", being down on VC 2, etc. - never materialized. Decoy on Jack rocks! He wasn't hit at all in my wins, and took about half an hour to kill in my loss.
If I had hit the Peacemaker when I needed to, I am confident I would have won that match. It reminded me of MechThran's US Nats win - except his BR Solitaire rolled the 13 he needed to hit Peacemaker, while I missed the same roll with my Shiro! If I had it to play over again, I might try to kill ATVs from range and run around behind the blocking, avoiding the Malice entirely. Might not be enough time for that, though.
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Post by tjpandv on Sept 8, 2006 10:06:31 GMT -5
Nice report - its a shame we have to roll those 3 bits of plastic around the table. A bit different if you're hoping for big numbers, but a kicker if you're rolling with good odds.
It sounds like the Ares would have suffered the same fate as Army 1 - taking so long to get there and getting tagged along the way.
So you've found a build that stood up to 3 "regular" builds and I rekon would have given an Ares a good pasting. Good job.
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Post by asburygrad on Sept 9, 2006 14:10:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the encouraging words, Phil! I was pretty pleased with how easily this army worked in practice. On paper, I was worried about keeping Jack within 6 inches of the blocking terrain, and about people trying to take him out - but it wasn't too hard to keep him alive and in range.
Now I just need to build an army that can give all the defense-mongers a hard time! I have a feeling that Peacemaker + Mjolnir, Seka's Pride + Jack, and Solitude armies are all going to show up in my near future . . .
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Post by baw on Sept 11, 2006 7:03:01 GMT -5
If they are showing up.. You need one of two things... Artillery or formations You needed to get a formation shot off against Peacemaker.. 13's.. Scare me bad.. Actually I am afraid of 11's.
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Post by asburygrad on Sept 12, 2006 10:13:01 GMT -5
My next match was going to be the Ares kill-and-keep, but the Battlemaster moved that event up a week, and I won't be able to go. So on my original planned date, we will be running regular 600-point armies.
I'm actually kind of glad that he moved the Ares event forward, because that likely means that I will see the Ares in the 600-point matches. I would be shocked if the venue's younger players passed on an opportunity to play with their new toys! For those that didn't win an Ares, I would expect to see 2 heavies or 2 assaults; they tend to play pieces that "look cool" rather than building complex army strategies.
At the same time, I ask myself, "What if that same player (who beat me last week) walks in with his Peacemaker/Mjolnir army?" I don't expect him to show up - this is not his regular venue. But if he does, and if I did nothing in the two weeks between games to improve my army for dealing with that army, whose fault is it if I lose again?
I am also worried about somebody, at some point, imitating the World Champ's army and using Seka's Pride + Jack with Decoy. (It's only a matter of time! Heck, it could be me . . . )
So I am thinking of taking the same army concept, but replacing Kaminari with AoD Alpha. This cuts my range by 2 inches, but gives me back enough points for a Liao Anat/TGR or TTL drop. Dropping the Faction Pride will also give me enough points for some fast basers - to tie up one heavy/assault while I beat down the other heavy/assault when facing dual RHDM armies. Building up to 600 exactly will also make me feel better about the army in general.
What do you guys think?
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Post by baw on Sept 13, 2006 7:20:35 GMT -5
*I hear ELITE in my Head* He says.. TAKE ALPHA.. He loves that Piece! ok.. You are talking about a TTL Drop... I am not sure you need a drop. With this army I almost prefer another TTL rather than a transport. You have the range.. They are going to have to come to you to fire at you anyways.. If you can have a formation with your TTLs then it tends to work pretty well. (as long as you use the Good HS TTL's) Just a thought.. Wow! my 1000th post.. Ok I guess I am talking way too much!
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Post by asburygrad on Sept 13, 2006 10:42:37 GMT -5
I would tend to think that TTLs outside of a transport are really, really vulnerable though. That's why my first thought was to drop them into place, then pick 'em up and move them when not needed. Running a formation of them could work, though, and just use a movement formation to get them into place? I will have to think on it some more.
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