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Post by baw on Feb 20, 2006 8:32:46 GMT -5
I want to hear about the Call to Arms event.. Especially the twin battle On a side not.. I see that I am now a Medium Mech.. Perhaps we need to make the title after assault mech.. TWINS
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 20, 2006 12:07:58 GMT -5
OK. The Call to Arms Event from Saturday.
I went only half expecting to play since a) I didn't know if the twins nerf would be in effect and B) it was a constructed, ranked game.
So I showed up and found that, yes the twins were pre-nerf. And I was not going to play, but another battlemaster who needs things to be done by the book convinced the running battlemaster that if he wasn't using the correct unretired list (Falcon's prey was banned from play), that he needed to run the event as an unrestricted... Once that was changed, I threw into the ring.
I played: True Grit BR Solitaire w/ Lill + EC BR Solitaire w/ Scott
ROTS Bishop WH Kelswa
ROTS Bishop CNC Thunderbird (Elite) WH CBA x2
HD Bishop ROTS centaur BA x2 LI combat techs.
1st game: I don't know what to say about the first game at all. It was the most bizzare game of MW I've ever played. The guy I played had something serious going on inside and I was actually fearing for my life around the middle of the game. I like to think I'm pretty pleasant when I play... serious, but certainly not a jerk in any way. So I never have been in a position where I thought a guy was going to reach across the table and hit me before. I continued to try to be as pleasant and nice as possible as he broke his ruler around his neck, slammed down his pieces (almost breaking them as well) and made bizzare non-sequiters about procreating.
I could tell you about the game itself, but the key thing is that I won with 3 VCs and got the heck out of dodge.
Game 2: Played a guy running 3 BR solitaires. This game was really, really good. He was a great guy to play against and ran a good army! He played Caverns, I played crags, I think. We both rolled terrible for the first half of the game. I had him outplayed as far as odds were concerned (I set up so I needed consistently lower rolls than he did), but I couldn't hit and his dice warmed up. I lost with 0 VCs
Game 3: Played against scummyrat, a really great guy who I've played before, but who has gotten a LOT better since I played him last! My TG cancelled his Merc FP, which upset him since he was running tremor (as well as 2 BR solitaires). Tremor with the Merc FP would have been very bad for me since most of my high defenses are based around pilots and evade. So it was good that was gone. I liked the terrain, so played my perfect day. I got the drop on Tremor with my infantry drop and pogged him. ScummyRat made the mistake of Assault ordering away from the pog instead of taking the 1 damage, lit himself up for a 5 damage ammo explosion and proceeded to get pounded for a quick end to the game. It could have been VERY different if he had made a different choice that turn. Won that one with 3.
4th game: played Puptrup, another very good, established player and a nice guy. He was running 4 WH Mjolnirs, some Centaur BA and a JJ infantry formation. We had Caustic Atmosphere (Which only effected my combat techs and which didn't cause a single bit of damage) and storm (which did nothing) in play. Mjolnirs just have too low defense and too short dials to be very workable. Puptrup played a great game, but in the end, I had the odds in my favor when it came to hitting. Plus I made some key rolls when I needed them. Won with 3.
Game 5: Semifinals...Played Southpaw who was running Bartleby madness. I think he was feeling overconfident about his 26 (27 with nightfall) defense. On turn 1, I moved my bishops up behind blocking. On turn 2, I formation dropped him for 6 and finished him off the next turn. His WH Kelswa made a decent showing, but in the end couldn't make up for the mech's flexability. Nightfall was in effect.
Game 6: Finals. Played the twins in Caverns. The kid who played them didn't have them loaded out to be uber effective (No DR/Pulse madness) and was, from what I can tell, a beginner. We danced around while I waited for him to strike at me so I could counter strike him. He did. We both missed. He moved too close, I assaulted around blocking with both my mechs, hit one twin for 4. Dropped the Kelswa, fired at the undamaged one, but missed. I made one really, really bad mistake in the game which cost me my infantry pulse/formation drop. That may have made a big difference late in the game when I had killed one twin and damaged the other. As it was, there just wasn't enough to make a comeback. He pounded me until I conceeded the game.
My twins opinion... They are still really powerful post nerf (since that was basically how the kid played them). However, I think they can be beaten by a force like the one I brought, especially in 600. I have revised that army to make it stronger, droping the centaur and putting in HS grey death BA for some Anti-P action. I also replaced the EC and the WH kelswa for the Merc Kelswa. There were many, many times on Saturday that I would have prefered 2 targets and 24 defense over 16" range and 6 damage. As Uber as people seem to think the WH kelswa is, I think the good 'Ol merc standby is more functional.
I also think choice of PC is key. Barrens and/or crags would have been really good to have in hand.
I am struggling coming up with an anti-twins army that is still competitive in 450, however. My best attempt so far looks like this:
True Grit Odin w/ Erkki
Rots Bishop ROTS Kelswa
ROTS bishop Rots Infiltrator MKII x2 ROTS Angerona
HS Sylph
I'm not sure if it'll work, though. Or if it will be effective enough against non-twins armies.
I certainly welcome opinions for anti-twin in 450.
Z
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Post by baw on Feb 20, 2006 14:48:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the report. I almost emailed the guy about restricting Falcon's Prey. It didn't seem good to me.. I probably should have I am not sure I like the twins as much in 600. You have lots of opportunities to finish one off before he can run away. I am going to have to look at these guys in more depth.. I was astounded playing them with the Pulse/DR madness. That was pretty crazy... (tried it out during and Unrestricted) They are still going to be a force to be reckoned with I think. Thank goodness it was an unrestricted event One thing that scares me a lot.. If you are playing twins versus twins.. Whoever goes first and rolls well wins Well It may not be that simple but it will be nasty!
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 20, 2006 14:55:44 GMT -5
One thing that scares me a lot.. If you are playing twins versus twins.. Whoever goes first and rolls well wins Well It may not be that simple but it will be nasty! Yep, I agree. That's why I think in the grand scheme of things, it's better to find an army that can deal with the twins while still being able to cope with everything else. ...and in 450, I am still looking for that army. Z
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Post by baw on Feb 20, 2006 15:00:02 GMT -5
There are a couple armies out there that can deal with the twins... The trick is being able to deal with everything else! Let me know if you find it We will probably see it at Nationals though! I hope somene comes up with something soon During the next unrestricted I might have to try Chikako against the girls.. He could stand a first hit and put a world of hurting back to them (which they probably can't handle..) The question is can he stand up to the constant bombarbment.. probably not...
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 20, 2006 15:07:59 GMT -5
The problem is not hitting one 1st. The problem is being able to kill one in a turn so that you don't have the hurt one playing keep away the entire game.
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Post by baw on Feb 20, 2006 23:25:42 GMT -5
I am just bouncing an idea around my head. I will have to see how it works.. If the twins come without arty... Chikako could back into woods. That would give him a 24 def.. It would make him pretty hearty against the twins.. hmmm Although they could start CC assault order. into the rear.... It sounded good for a few minutes.. We need blocking and hindering for Chikako to hide in This definitely needs some more thought.
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Post by dragondawg on Feb 21, 2006 11:07:12 GMT -5
Bawkako- I know you like Chiky and have used him a ton, you might be the master of Chikako. I think it could work. Perhapes a formation of cheap infantry around his rear? HL Combat Technichians? Point Defense BR Elite Infantry? Then two nasty little guys for when a twin bases any of them, a Flamer-er or Grappler? Will a formation of four infantry keep an opposing mech in Chikako's front arch?
Alternatively, how about some cheap-o minibikes? These guys have the speed to keep up with Chikako and at 36 pts (for a four unit formation)for five clicks of life and Reactive armor, come on RotS all the way, unless you would like four HS bikes to formation fire with Pulse on any Twin trying to sneek up on you.
JumpJetters will get into and out of the woods no problem.
Recon might be my favorite, as they can recon move and save you some orders. Three reconing JF Pals can keep Twins from basing Chikako's rear, but only if are not in formation. Recon lets them move to those positions for free-ish (SU recon)
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 21, 2006 11:22:53 GMT -5
Right. Even with the hindering terrain, the twins need a 10 to hit. They can do 7 damage on a first strike (2x2pulse on dial + 3 energy) and end in Chikako's rear arc. That leaves Chikako with a 9it attack (11 with pilot)for 4 damage. He'll have to assault to hit back. I would almost rather put him in water since he is so heat efficient being a quad. Let him soak the 7 damage, drop a repair unit or base scraper and CC assault for 4 (needing a 10with it). That cracks one. You'll need repair and a tank drop to have the chance at beating the twins.
What do you guys think about something like this:
Chikako w/ gabe 256
SC r10 48 DF tokugawa 60
SC saxon 23 LI Combat techs 15
CJF Raiden BA x3 (9"move JJ)
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Post by dragondawg on Feb 21, 2006 13:13:15 GMT -5
Z-
Looks good. I like the raidens. I would like ECamo on Chikako of course. (Or Anti-Personel because TTL will be the preeminent Arty support in Twin Armies.) That lets us set up Chik behind an H where the tank-drop can cover him.
We could cut some points with Boris in Chikako and/or drop the SC trany, add a PD infantry and depend on Chikako getting back to the PD/Repair team instead of bringing it to him if it stays around.
I don't know.
By the way, could someone check my question on the Wizkids Rules Forum about Anti-Personel and help explain their answers to me.
The points I don't get is how can I assign 0 damage to a piece in formation with infantry and the infantry take full damage off the dial?
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 21, 2006 13:36:51 GMT -5
DD,
Any infantry unit in base contact with your target, even if the target is assigned 0 damage will take damage from the anti personnel.
The SC r10 is the most effective vs twins because they can't salvage it right off and it's protected against ttl and most other competitive arty in the game.
Instead of the Raiden, I would rather put in 1 CNC ATV and 2 HK ATVs to hit a twin for 2 right off the bat. If you don't get 1st turn, you formation run them with the r10 to keep pushing damage down.
With the points saved there + with the shift to boris, we may be able to fit true grit or a 4th atv... I'll have to run the numbers later... or you can if you have time now.
Z
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Post by baw on Feb 21, 2006 15:16:25 GMT -5
See I have you guys thinking about it Do you get what Zxqueb is saying? Any infantry in base with any unit you successfully hit.. even if you apply zero damage to that unit... Takes the full number from the Dial! Hmmm You know me.. I keep playing around with a way to have Some arty support in this army.. Also need to think about how this army would fair against others.. Chikako is impressive in water no doubt... I sort of liked the idea of tying the twins down into the woods.. That would slow them down also.. How about a HS Sylph with Grapple? that might tie the Twins up.. ALthough they could break away or crunch the sylph it would still tie them up.. I also need to get home and crunch numbers to see what looks reasonable!
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 22, 2006 6:20:38 GMT -5
Well, this works points-wise:
Chikako+boris
SC r10 DF tokugawa
SC saxon LI Combat techs
CNC Atv HK ATV x2
True Grit
Total - 449
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Post by baw on Feb 22, 2006 9:21:12 GMT -5
Why True Grit? I don't see a point for it in this army... 1 unit (Chikako) would have it's defensive Mods knocked down for 1 attack. So basically they are spending 15 points to reduce CHikakos defense for 1 attack? It is worth paying 15 points to counter that? It also works against BR faction pride but It doesn't seem to gel with me... Besides ... I really want an arty piece or two in the army
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 22, 2006 9:41:13 GMT -5
True grit also gets rid of +1 damage FPs (which we see a lot of here).
I don't know of an active 16 pt artillery unit.
What would your change to the army be to fit in artillery, Baw?
Z
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