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Post by mikeguth on Mar 15, 2006 23:49:28 GMT -5
Any possibility of using Wahab Fusili in his mech and Tormak in Black Blade? The AP shot would have to go to Wahab, or the twins could fire at both mechs with non armor piercing for a maximum of 2 damage to black blade......
Still leaves you with about 100 points for screening from charge.
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 16, 2006 5:21:26 GMT -5
Nice idea as it would leave Tomark pretty much intact or if Wahab was the target, he'd have a big attack using rapid strike.
Biggest problem I see is that Wahab has to be in a position be a target of the attack. As the Twin player can run his mechs 24 inches, I would imagine he could place them so that Tomark was in range but Wahab wasn't. However, this alone may well mean that he has to place his Twins somewhere not of his choosing (near a HS Sylph, for example?).
There's a move at our Club for the Twin players to maximise their orders above and beyond what is considered the norm.
The Twins give you 4, Harvey and its pilot can use recon and possibly one more order. So far, that's 6 orders given and only 2 used. Add in some PAL suits/Shamash support and you're still able to give a "normal" unit your last remaining order.
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Post by baw on Mar 16, 2006 9:29:06 GMT -5
I seriously have thought about the wrongness of harvey being in the army also! 7+ orders in a turn is just... overwhelming to think about.
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Post by dragondawg on Mar 16, 2006 15:31:49 GMT -5
I was just thinking of Okami against the twins last night. I thought of having a DF Angerona (Point Defense) basing Okami+Wahab+Evade to pump the mech's defense to a 24 for any and all shots against him. Then have a heavy hitter sitting next to him that can do 6-8 damage. Eh.....
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Post by baw on Mar 17, 2006 9:32:23 GMT -5
slightly off top but it is funny to see the ads across the top are the following currently: Expecting TWINS? BUY Minnesota Baseball tickets! One Great Gift for TWINS! Enfamil (baby milk) Family beginnings It is just pretty amusing I don't think okami would hold up very well. There are a couple of issues.. twins target Okami and the Angerona with Ballistics.. or even better the twins target the heavy hitter!
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 17, 2006 12:37:32 GMT -5
What about taking on the Twins with a Mechless army? Moving up to 600 points gives you 4 orders - enough for 2 drops.
The Twins excel at taking out mechs and by bringing along 1 or 2, you've given them ample opportunity to use their mobility AND their bonses.
PCCs such as underbrush and crags would help a mechless build and careful selection of pieces would allow you to keep your biggest losses to, say, 100 points for something like a Kelswa.
I know that the mobility isn't there but pieces like the HiL Paladin/Kelswa and the SC R10 give the Twins real problems. They are also pretty poor at taking out infantry swarms.
Any views/thoughts?
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Post by baw on Mar 17, 2006 14:07:31 GMT -5
Mechless is definitely helpful against the twins..Sure they can take out a unit a turn but they do deal with lots of units pretty well. Assault in move back out if necessary. They could still give some grief to units.. 2 tank drops would be nice against the twins.. As long as they can't terminate 1 of the tanks drops. The thing is you have to remember the twins have TONS of more support now.. A few arty pieces.. and tank drop generally doesn't do well against that!
In 600 pts with twins I could play some serious arty! That would bring grief to a mechless army. Still it is an interesting thought!
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Post by mikeguth on Mar 18, 2006 8:52:22 GMT -5
Failed to beat Twins again.
I tried HD LOKI, 2 HighL Hadur, 1 HighL Kelswa, Lex Corpus.
This build had many weaknesses, the original idea was that it was as close to the old twin ARROW IV army as you couuld get under the current rules. The Kelswa provides defense against Twins or single WH tank drop. The artillery gives me the ability to attack Twin infantry or transport or artillery at range. The highland formation allows me to formation move out from under artillery.
Problems? Well, no True Grit (does give me VC2 to start against many Twins). Attack only 11 on the Loki. And then the first game.....
The first game I played against a Black Blade with 2 TTLs in a VTOL, revealed a glaring weakness-I get out shot by opponent's artillery. Ouch. I won, but only because opponent charged his Blade into the teeth of my units. Worse, I sacrified my Dust Storm card to slow down his VTOLs.
Finally, game against Twins with WH Kelswa and WH R10 by WAREAGLE-the Kotch variant. Should have been my dream match, except I've used my Dust storm and Urban cards. He goes salt flats. Brain spasm after he tank dropped his WH Kelswa. I panic when I realized that he could fire at my tank and I couldn't return fire. STUPID, of course I couldn't, that's what the artillery was there for. Instead, I AO'ed with my mech. I missed. He did run run shoot, shoot into my rear arc with Twins. Didn't I write somewhere NEVER to give Twins rear arc? I lost 3 damage and a click of heat. I AO close combat a twin and hit it for 5, but my Kelswa and Hadur both MISS! A Kelswa hit would indeed have destroyed a Twin, but the Loki shut down at this point and the game was over. Next turn he Kills the Loki, I salvage a Twin. Well, small consolation.
So, in retrospect this army could have ;'played' against the Kotch Twin army, all I needed to do was to FIRE THE HADURS when the tank drop came up. The WH Kelswa ain't much special after 2-4 clicks of damage.
Cloudmoon had warned repeatedly about how bad the Highand Kelswa is. I regret that I couldn't prove him wrong. It did provide the defense I needed to protect the Hadurs and my mech. But, it dies to TTL pogs. Sigh.
The 11 attack on the Loki is also only a crap shoot against incoming Twins, and 21 Decoy risky.
The conundrum though is that the alternative is to take True Grit and and a mech like the NCNC with Decoy. But you are talking 60 more points than the Loki. Now you can't get two artillery pieces with any kind of range.
Meanwhile, my son also played Twins, with Scott Graves in Hellion instead of the tank drop. He misses with one of 2 twin attacks. Opponent hits with tank drop. Sad...... he still went 2-1.
Wareagle's comment, 'right now there's nothing else to play except twins.'. Sigh....
Sincerely,
michaelguth@verizon.net '
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Post by mikeguth on Mar 18, 2006 8:58:56 GMT -5
Other armies I saw last night at VA NQ Game Parlor.
Another army that gave me fits was a Phelan Ward, and Bartleby with a lone tank, I forget what, about 74 points. I had HD Loki/Corpus, 2 HiLnd Hadur and HiLnd Kelswa.
Well, I start by pogging the tank, slowly degrading it. My opponent is making me roll repeatedly for Zellbringin. It works! Now, my Loki cannot help protect my Hadur formatin from Bartleby. If I base Bartleby then Bartleby damages me by breaking off!!!
Well, I killed the tank, and took off after Phelan. If there had been water on the board he might have had me in trouble, but I was able to corner him. Meanwhile, Bartleby did not kill my Kelswa; but it could have happened.
Phelan could make things tight for the Twins with Zellbringin, since he would be immune to the second twin or Kelswa drop and neutralizes one Twin. Large amount of points though, and he would need repair or he just dies to the one twin. Have to play with it.....
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Post by mikeguth on Mar 18, 2006 17:39:53 GMT -5
Phelan Ward has ugly potential. Xyber/Sinister has been touting a RHDM as a Twin killer. One 6 from Phelan, zellbringin, and the RHDM is neutered. The twins can even base him and he can't attack. That leaves 280 points of Twins to salvage or kill one supporting piece while the RHDM tries to hunt down Phelan, which isn't easy. He is fast...
He MIGHT also be usable as an anti twin, since he costs only 2 points more than a Twin, and he has pulse. Zellbring the Twin without pulse, and it will be a pretty fair shootout. Just have to make that tank drop deploy early.....
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Post by baw on Mar 20, 2006 8:26:08 GMT -5
I could never convince myself to play a game where my chances of winning depended on a single die roll. DragonDawg came up this week and got to see the twins in action by my son It wasn't pretty. They need to nerf those guys!
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 20, 2006 11:11:55 GMT -5
Fingers crossed on a Twins nerf...
In the meantime, the UK Nationals have announced that we will play 600 point constructed faction/alliance pure!!
I can't see any single faction or legal alliance set taking the Twins on. To my mind, they've just gone and shut the door on any non-twin player having a decent chance of getting to the last 8, let alone winning the event.
In an effort to make something of it, I've gone back to Mechless and came up with this...
SC R10 Merc Kelswa 3 x WH MG Cycles SC R10 CNC Enyo 3 x Merc Gnome BA CNC Bishop CNC Elite TBA 2 x WH CBA 2 x CNC ATVs 4 x HK ATVs 5 x WH MG Cycles True Grit
PCCs would be a combo of Swamp, Underbrush and Crags.
That's 3 drops, 2 ATV infiltrating formations (I know Swamp nerfs their infiltrate) and a bunch of inf to escort the transports/base etc. A lot of units carry hardened and reactive armour. I think Swamp is a good card against the Twins + Arty as it reduces the POG and limits the Twins to a 16" run/charge and an 14" AO. The BIG downer with this SA grouping is the lack of decent arty support. I suppose a Merc Kelswa/DF Hadur may at least put the pressure on the opponent to come to me and enter drop range.
The more I read about Phelan operating in support of the Twins, the more I can see that going Mechless is an opportunity to nerf his special ability.
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Post by Zxqueb on Mar 20, 2006 11:56:23 GMT -5
tjpandv It's a strong army, whether or not we see a twins nerf. The twins + 3rd mech might take out one transport in a turn, but they would be charging to do it. You have a number of fast basers that can keep that from happening. You'll lose an ATV quickly against the twins, so you'll need to make sure you can set up for a drop equally quickly to keep them from killing + evading you for the rest of the game. You might want to consider either barrens and/or salt flats for the extra range / ability to drop straight. You might also want to mess with your gnome group and or you MG group to pull some Centaur or TTL arty support. I prefer the 19pt ROTS centaurs because of their armor piercing, but YMMV. That'll work well against turtlers (which you'll see if there is a big mech counter to the twins). My $.02, Z
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Post by baw on Mar 20, 2006 14:40:34 GMT -5
the Kelswa in the SC10 needs to be protected against the twins or else they are dead.
Glory charges Fortune moves up. then pulse and a finish attack and the sc10 with the Kelswa is gone in one turn. I would look at protecting the R10's with ATV's from charges. It is still going to be a little bit iffy.
I am with Zxqueb. Salt Flats would be wonderful for you. It is only good for one round though.
With blocking the twins are going to be able to outrun you all day long or force you into a comprimising position. It will be difficult but watching your back and hoping for a couple bad rolls on the part of the twins will help.
First turn you can actually put some damage on the twins if you win initiative but there are too many necessary rolls to make the army work.
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 20, 2006 15:25:22 GMT -5
Thanks guys - if I can get a second Merc Paladin, I may well swap out the Enyo drop team for a pair of Paladins and enough WH PAL Suits to provide a screen. The UK decision to go FP/Alliance pure is really hampering me.
I see what you mean about the R10 - I don't think there's a transpost going that's safe from the Twins!!
I'd only use the ATVs for first strike if I got Player 1 and my opponent didn't have the BR/SSwn SA. It would be too much of an opportunity not to take a Twin down to its first repair marker on turn 1. I think your point about using them to stop the charges is, on the whole, a better use. So maybe its Crags, Salt Flats and Barrens.
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