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Post by Zxqueb on Mar 20, 2006 16:07:51 GMT -5
Right... Alliance pure-- That's why the no artillery. Gotcha. Forget my TTL suggestions, then.
A pair of Merc Paladins might be ok, although dropping the Enyo weakens the army significantly against the twins. I think I would choose the enyo over the arty... Or maybe just work one in?
Z
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Post by baw on Mar 21, 2006 7:33:14 GMT -5
A drop is very nice against the twins. You just have to protect it significanly (which makes it more expensive) Merc Paladins are not very effective at all against the twins but good against other armies especially RHDM although they could be effective against the twins support.
The Merc Paladins are ok versus Shiro's. I would expect to see a few of them.
Good luck!
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Post by mikeguth on Mar 21, 2006 7:59:12 GMT -5
A problem with any Anti-Twin army is that it has to meet five flavors of Twins, maybe four. Twin One: Twins plus WH Kelswa drop, MFP,after Kotch ; Twin Two: Highland Paladin, Twins, repair infantry, after Cloudmoon; Twin Three: Twins plus 3rd mech-Phelan Ward very cruel, also Graves Hellion Plus MFP; Twin Four: Twins with smaller artillery; Twin Five: Twins with other various supports.
I am getting sick of trying to come up with an army which might be viable against even one of these. One thing that might be worth considering is to take Merc Pure, with MFP. Then the defense of a Twin on the first shot goes down to 20, 19 if charged, and you could charge around corners to get to it.
The nasty thing about the Cloudmoon army is that the Twins in base with the Paladin have a 25 defense against ranged.....
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Post by baw on Mar 21, 2006 12:32:38 GMT -5
There is a variety of options with the twins. I really need to start looking at other armies because (fingers crossed) they are going to nerf them.
That is a very good listing of the general types of twins armies. I keep thinking about trying to build a Jackalope with the twins and hoping for the extra order!
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 25, 2006 19:52:34 GMT -5
I went up against a Twin army in the final of a UK Nats qualifier and learned some useful lessons.
My opponent was from Kotch's club (and had made a 400 mile round trip, with 2 others, to play) and fielded a Kotch-type 450 point army with an extra mech thrown in (which maybe wasn't the best use of 600 points). His army was the Twins, Fang piloted by Ulri, WH R45 with a WH Kelswa and Merc FP. I played JF faction pure with a Loki (Kerensky+Pulse), R45 with Enyo, 2 x Sylph, 3 x PAL suits, 4 Trackbikes, a Shamash plus True Grit.
For PCCs/missions, we each had our last card to play which both turned out to be caverns. Prior to this, I'd got past a Black Rose/Blitz/Anubis army and one based on Black Blade/Fang and a CNC Enyo Drop.
Terrain was all blocking with me as player 2, I placed my B3s near the RH edge of the table to create (at 90 degrees to the DZ to create "valleys" or "runs"). My opponent played a B5 near these pieces as well as a B3 on the other side.
I infiltrated my Shamash hoping he'd ignore it and I'd get a ram in. 1 turn later I'd lost my Shamash as the Twins ran over and toasted it. One of my Sylphs went up to base a Twin but Ulri salvaged it and the Twins ran away. Two turns in and I was down on VC1 and 2.
My force went up the RH side (with 2 Trackbikes basing Fang) and used the B3 to block any rear arc on the Loki (Caverns really helped here as my rear could go against the blocking and no indirect shot would take me out). My next mistake was to place the Loki within shooting distance of Fang, but Fang missed. Fang was now hot and still based by 2 Trackbikes.
The next Twin move saw them run up to my R45. The first assaulted and moved so as to block the rear arc, pulsed and hit. The second hit and my R45 was salvaged with no room for the Enyo to escape (I'd underestimated the Twins' speed and 2 of my own trackbikes, which were positioned to stop a charge on rear arc, actually sealed the Enyo's fate). My first glimmer of hope, however, as the first Twin fails a shutdown and the second runs VERY hot. At this point, the lack of support pieces for my opponent really told as his tank drop was too far away to help his 3 hot mechs - he also had nothing to base my Loki and stop it from assaulting. This proved fatal for the shut down Twin as it took 5+5 from my Mech on an assault order and disappeared. My Loki passes its crit shut down roll - Fang fails to break way from the Trackbikes. My PAL suits then based his other Twin. Decision time now for my opponent - break away a hot Twin or vent - he chose to vent (being from Kotch's club - he knew the percentage odds of getting captured!). Unfortunately for him and fortunately for me, I made the roll (13) and captured the mech. The Loki then pushed, assaulted and pulsed Fang with salvaged the mech but shut me down. The Kelswa now moves within drop range of the Loki (having been slowed down in previous turns by failing a break way from a Sylph). Next turn, my 2 supporting PAL suits move to protect the captor from CC attacks and I move my Sylph in front of his R45, just where he needs to drop the Kelswa. The game ends with Fang basing and breaking my PAL suits until they kill Fang and, as my opponent can't drop the Kelswa, he pushes and moves it in front of my Loki. My Loki vents, restarts and eventually pulses the R45 complete with Kelswa.
Lessons for me were:
-B3 is very useful to create channels down 1 flank to hide behind.
-Support is key. The Trackbikes and PALs were awesome. They all made my opponent make more dice rolls that he wanted to.
-Lokis are good pieces against Twins. The CJF heat dial is great as is the AV but a higher defence would be nice.
-The Enyo is a great drop option against the Twins - better AV than a Kelswa with good damage. Range isn't an issue, the Twins will always out-range you. Also, very few transports are safe against the Twins, so loosing 60 points is better that 100. The Enyo is still a tempting target which can lure the Twins into a killing zone.
-Caverns worked really well in not allowing my opponent to shoot at me indirect and allowed me to use the blocking, rather than just hugging the edge of the table.
-True Grit saved me from the Merc FP.
-Whilst my build was FP and didn't have the best anti-twin pieces, it did work in that the Loki, Enyo or, at a push, the Sylphs, were all capable of dealing out high damage. If my Loki was the target, after 7 clicks, it was dealing 2 with pulse and my Enyo drop would do 3 with pulse. The aim of the build was to survive a first strike and take out a Twin.
My opponent was too aggressive and his build had no support. His move on my R45 was great, but he had only just vented his Twins and had he waited 1 more turn, their heat dials wouldn't have been so bad. A Twin build with arty and repair would be immense. As much as I'd love to play the role of a grand tactician, I have to admit that all my key dice rolls worked. I only really started to miss at the end of the game when it was all over. My opponent missing a 12 to hit the Loki was key, as was his shutdown roll.
A win for a FP army against a Twin army - was I a happy bunny or what? Against a better build and a more patient opponent, I would have struggled. However, Caverns worked for me as did the ability to dish out high damage even after a Twin strike.
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Post by Zxqueb on Mar 27, 2006 6:31:06 GMT -5
In the meantime, the UK Nationals have announced that we will play 600 point constructed faction/alliance pure!! Where can the details of UK nationals be found? Z |
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 27, 2006 7:08:35 GMT -5
Dates are 3-4 June.
Saturday is booster draft to determine seedings for the second day which is 3 rounds constructed (Faction Pure/Alliance Pure with Mercs etc) followed by last 16 going into a knock out. The UK event is an open one (30-40 in number). The idea of the seeding is to let the "better" players avoid each other in the first round on Sunday.
I'll try and get a link when I get home (firewall at work).
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Post by baw on Mar 27, 2006 7:46:00 GMT -5
Great Writeup TJPANDV! I enjoyed reading it. Well they have pretty much nerfed my BR/SSW Twin army with breaking the Liao/BR alliance! No more cheap repair units for this SA!
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Post by Zxqueb on Mar 27, 2006 11:05:27 GMT -5
I'll second Baw here. Thanks for the battle report!
From what you wrote, I agree that your opponent was too aggressive. Why did he attack once he had killed the shamash? I think it would have been more useful to play keepaway the rest of the game. With a couple pieces of blocking, that shouldn't have been a problem.
Z
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Post by baw on Mar 27, 2006 13:15:37 GMT -5
I have seen many games lost because the player was too aggressive! Those twins can play keepaway better than most.
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