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Post by mikeguth on Mar 3, 2006 15:10:45 GMT -5
Dear Zxqueb,
I think you are missing the point about the Black blade. It leaves you about 250 points of support even tricked out with the FP and the rapid strike. So, the only way that the Twins do 7 damage is if they charge. Otherwise, its 2 armor piercing to get through the black armor+2+2 pulse (if they are lucky) or 3 for a total of 5. I have no intention of failing to screen my mech from that initial charge.
In either case it doesn't matter, I still have a 2 damage showing, which with the Tormak's ability becomes a 3 in CC, with FP becomes a 4, with rapid strike becomes an 8, which means a Twin is salvaged on one order (at least a 62% chance).
Now, we both have supporting troops, and there is a twin left after my first order. I think that with 250 points of support near my Blade that I will have enough to kill one Twin and maybe wound the other. Now, the other Twin can kill my mech on the next turn, maybe; he'd have to pulse to do it. AND THERE IS NO EXTRA ORDER!
Everything will depend on the Twin build. I would be defeated quickly by a Twin army with a tank drop. I think I could actually handle the Twins plus Highland Paladin/Repair vehicle which defeated Xyberbratt.
I know that everyone on this site loves Chickaco, and he is a really great mech. But, I would suggest that a key feature of any anti-Twin army is the ability to toss out 8+ damage even after you have taken 6 damage, since this will salvage or kill a twin in one turn. Many heavy mechs can do this when equipped with pulse, Kurita mechs are an alternative especially if equipped with faction pride.
I am considering BR-SS alliance, Davion Loki, Liao repair infantry (think that's still legal), then two artillery and some sort of BR and SS infantry. Darn, no 3 cap transport anyplace!
Two National Qualifiers this weekend, my son and I are only scrubs, but we'll report back. We face the dreaded RAYWIND, wish us luck!
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Post by Zxqueb on Mar 6, 2006 12:46:19 GMT -5
Mike,
How did you do in the NQs?
I have been thinking about your idea of using black blade as a twins counter all weekend... And I have to say while I didn't like the idea at first, the more I think about it, the more I like it. I'm going to have to mess with some army builds to exploit it and run a test game or five.
Z
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 7, 2006 10:55:33 GMT -5
KURO HA
This piece seems to be the choice of many a Twin Hunter. Its an effective Mech in its own right and that's not something that can be said about every mech used in anti-twin builds. Her effectiveness, or otherwise, is down to the type of build and her gear.
Type of Build - Using HK FP will boost her damage by 1 giving you a 4 when she hits. If you take the HK FP, you're probably looking at being Faction Pure - will a FP army cut it against the Twins? Not taking TG will also leave yourself open to the Merc FP. Choice of Pilots - Into the Breach is perhaps one of the most agressive abilities seen on pilots. Gives her an assault order range of 22 inches, with no heat. Allows her to use Primary Gear such as Rapid Strike and HtH Weapon. Unfortunately, one of the best PCCs to counter the Twins is Crags, which stops Mechs (including this one) from running.
Born Leader doesn't appear to be so appealing at first sight. However, you're gaining a 4th order and if you're playing a drop, it will give you much more freedom of movement.
Choice of Gear - Comes down to offensive and defensive, I suppose. Defensive will include:
Heavy Fibrous (fantastic at keeping down the damage but it can put you 39 points down in VC2 down if you loose it). Reflective Armour (Marginal use as it wouldn't kick in until the hardened went, but much of the Twins' damage comes from energy weapons so take 2 from Fortune's AP and then glory has to shoot using ballistic for 3 - that's only 5 from shooting). Ablative Armour (probably the best to neuter the Twins but if could be points wasted against other armies). Evade (Single use so it will cost you some of your black armour but it will give you a 24 defence against ranged attack). Agility (will protect you against the charge from Glory but your defense against ranged is still low).
Offensive Gear would be:
Bawling (cheap option, would boost the hand to hand up to 5 if using L-018 and HK FP. Can still be used when HtH weapn cuts in later in the dial.). Rapid Strike (Needs to be played with with FP and L-18 as primary damage reduces to zero after 7 clicks when HtH Weapon takes over). Extra Ammo (Threw whis one in as a possbility so that you can shoot with her all the way down the dial, allowing you to deal with agility mechs such as Jack - its also a cheap points filler).
My own choice would be:
Black Blade Tomark L-026 (Born Leader) Ablative Armour
Support at 450 would be based on a couple of Bishops (or Bishop/SC R10) loaded with an Enyo and Thunderbird BA/WH CBA (or even a second Enyo).
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Post by Zxqueb on Mar 7, 2006 11:33:04 GMT -5
tjpandv,
I don't like running the HK faction pride for 2 reasons. First, it either restricts your build (all HK) or raises the cost too much (30 pts in 450, 40 in 600). Second, it can be cancelled too easily with True Grit and with the Merc FP card out there, the twins will want to run it as their defense is largely dependant on stacking modifiers. Against another player with with true grit, you start in the hole no matter how you look at it.
For me, that means that you are really needing to go more offensive than defensive with your CEC selection.
Unfortunately in order to kill a twin in a turn (so they don't run the whole game, you need a minimum of 4 damage in order to take it out with an enyo drop (the cheapest drop with good damage output) in the same turn. That means putting either rapid strike or brawling on the dial. Brawling gets you up to 4 damage for cheap, but you can do 6 with the RS which might be more useful against other units. So YYMV, I guess.
BTW, I don't think the brawling can be used with HTH weapon. It is a CEC on the same slot and doesn't say that it can be used with other damage special equipment. In order to have it apply, a piece would need 2 HTH symbols and have 1 with brawling / 1 with HTH weapon. As it is, it's one or the other.
The army that I would put together with Kuro ha would be something like this:
Kuro Ha + Katana (+1 damage, run to assault CC) + brawling. 210pts
SC r10 48 SC Enyo 58 WH Minigun x2 20
SC atv 14 HK atv x2 13 (26)
Rots Minigun x4 9 (36)
Rots Centaur BA 19 (38) (1 minigun could run in formation with these)
Total = 450
Thoughts?
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 7, 2006 16:35:17 GMT -5
The Kuro Ha load out is a very good one and the SC R10 is, I think, the only transport that can take on the Twins and survive.
(I think you're right about the Brawling but I'll have a dig around the rules/FAQs etc - that extra point of damage is worth 10 minutes in a rules book!).
I also like the SC Enyo as it has reflective which will protect it from the Twin with pulse.
I suppose the ATV set up is a great way of hitting the Twins if you're player 1 and they don't have repair.
The miniguns and Centaurs are solid troops and it gives you the basers/arty.
What about Steiner Sylphs with grapple? I think you need something that could base the second Twin (although it is a 1-way journey for 30 points).
My greatest concern is that all of my plans are focused on taking out a Twin, but what do I do when they bring a Kelswa drop as a friend???
As an aside, the UK Nationals (June) have just been changed to 600 points and the Euro Event is also 600 (must have 2 mechs). Will the Twins be overshadowed in 600 pointers or will they just get better as they now have better support?
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Post by baw on Mar 7, 2006 21:16:29 GMT -5
The big weakness is that the opponent of the twins does indeed get 4 orders. It is much easier to take a twin out in 4 orders than in 3. You can also get some heavy hitters in the army to be able to take out a twin faster. The twins will have much better support but I think it will weaken them some but not much.
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Post by Zxqueb on Mar 10, 2006 9:20:25 GMT -5
I was reading the twins battle report thread on the WK site, and came across one that really irritated me. Since we aren’t allowed to rant there, I’ll rant here.
Even with his explanation of his tactics, I think could beat this with the twins every time. It's just a terrible build! And he beat the twins with this force 8 times out of 10?! Do you guys see something that I am missing? He seems to think the twins player won't base things (like the off mongoose or the morrigan) before striking.
Yuck, a Morrigan!
Ok. Rant over.
Z
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Post by baw on Mar 10, 2006 12:52:44 GMT -5
Your thoughts were identical to mine.. I was like how.. Ok against a bad player I could beat twins most of the time I didn't like his army at all. The thing that drove me crazy was that we can't respond to his posts. Oh well. I was trying to decide if it was worth starting a thread shooting holes in his Army idea. I am glad I wasn't the only one with issues about this "TWIN KILLER"
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Post by mikeguth on Mar 12, 2006 14:14:32 GMT -5
Greetings from Crofton,
I qualified, if the Battlemaster will ever post the results. Played in two tournaments, in the first one my Twins went 1-2, then 3-0 the next day. I played Twins, WH Kelswa and R10 with Merc FP and 2 minigun cycles.
First match was against Aracnispider, a 1900 point player. I did not enjoy my game with him at all. I thought that we were being casual, especially after he repeatedly picked up and replaced moves, but later in the game he refused to click off two damage against an infantry unit I had shot because 'you didn't specify using your secondary weapon.' Jerk. Well, my loss to him went as follows. He played Yami Shiro with IT, pilot and a swarm of Kurita infantry. I erred in electing to play my Mission card (the one where you get VC for having someone in enemy DZ) instead of Perfect Day. Big mistake as he got Urban down and now the board was full of buildings that he could fire through.
Now, Yami in an H shaped building has a big advantage . With 18 inch range he can cover the entire board laterally, and while I have not actually taken out my graph paper and compass, I don't think the Twins an move(run) into his rear arc from out of his range and get a shot. Place the H a run move forward and you can probably cover most of the enemy Dz as well. Yes, Twins can still run and AO into his rear arc, or indirect him , but at the risk of taking significant damage back. Well, my plan was to force him to move by threatening a VC3+VC4 victory over his VC2 advantage for my Merc FP. After I passed for about 20 minutes he realized the danger and began to advance around the H shaped terrain. I immediately tank dropped one of his infantry; and critically missed!!!! He then assault ordered my tank, which still had decoy, and hit for 4. I admit, I was probably a bit careless with my drop, and probably could have positioned it OUT of AO range. Big trouble. Fortunately he then decided to rest to cool, and my R10 got the tank loaded and out of range. Well, it looks now like I will have to kill 2 pieces with my Twins to get back VC2, as he is headed for VC3 himself. So, while Yami rests, I fire and close assault an infantry. Argue briefly over damage to infantry ( I had declared armor piercing ON, so I don't see how he could construe me as not using my secondary weapon). Close Assault-CRITICAL MISS #2. Yami AO's and hits my Twin for 4. Well, now things are desperate. I run my mechs towards his rear zone. He AO's with Yami again and salavages my Twin, and pushes an ATV into my rear zone. I tank drop the ATV. CRITICAL MISS. Time called. He got VC2 and Vc3. Ouch. Well, I did have a plan; and had my tank drop hit I would have been in fairly good shape. I made a mistake in using the single use recon on the R10 on the turn I picked up my tank. In fact, that is critical to the TWIN/Kelswa army, since you can Twin/Twin/Recon-drop/fire in one turn. I could also have pursued the altnerative strategy of throwing everything against Yami on the first turn. 12 vs. 21 for 2 AP, followed by 12 vs. 21 for possible 1 damage, followed by an indirect shot from the tank. But, .7x.7 is only .49, so there is less than a 50-50 shot of both Twin attacks hitting. This is part of the Twin mythology, that they always hit their high odds attacks in sequence. Of course, this didn't protect me from the shot on my tank from Yami. I may have given the infantry too much respect
Second game was against my son's Yami army, Yami plus infantry swarm. My son is an average player and did not put down the H terrain. Yami went down to a double AO followed by the tank drop.
Third game against RAYWIND, former #2 at Nationals-lost to Corle 2 years ago. His army was interesting. He played Tomark in Black Blade, but NOT the Tomark with close assault benefit. Rather, the Tomark with extra order capability. He played two Bishops, 3 BR infantry, and a DF Tokogawa. I played poorly in this game, I was demoralized. Basically, he led with the Black Blade into hindering. I move move shoot shoot and missed my AP shot. Next turn he hit a Twin for 5, and tank dropped the Tokogawa and hit again. I tank dropped the Blade with my Kelswa next turn and missed. It was time for new dice after that.
Second NQ. Well, I had the advantage of knowing now not to use the SU Recon up while picking up the Kelswa. Moved my son to a Twin plus Graves/Hellion/Merc pride army. Played against three similar armies, each with a heavy mech (Loki or Nova Cat) and support. In all 3 cases the opponent moved towards me exposing his mech's rear arc. In all three cases I did run/run/shoot/charge followed by a tank drop the next turn. The toughest game was against a Davion Loki, one ATV, a Merc and a WH Kelswa. I was lucky my opponent played poorly. If he had kept the Kelswa closer to the mech he would have had quite a potential counterpunch to any attack that I made. In the game, my Twins both hit the Loki, and I tank dropped and missed with my Kelswa. His WH Kelswa then killed my Kelswa. I was able to finish off the Loki while taking damage from the merc Kelswa. I based his tanks with the minigun cycles and ran away.
My son went 2-1 using the Twins and Scott Graves/Hellion. His error was not realizing that he could run behind the enemy for rear shots. Still, he would have played me in the finals if he could have rolled two 9's with the Twins on the turn he attacked a Nova Cat with IT. Graves hit, but the Twins missed. Ouch.
So, there you go, a 1700 point player with Twins can indeed lose to 1900 point players without Twins. Yami may actually have a chance against Twins ( but where was my Barrens card, where was my Caverns card). Novices against Twins do not do well.
Back in the pre Twin era I sometimes played Black Rose, 2 CJF TTL dropped and a couple of ATV's. I wonder if you could substitute the Twins for this. I have also thought about just subbing the Twins for Chickaco in the famous BAW army.
I still think the Black Blade might be playable. Regardless of what CLOUDMOON pontificates, how about the Black Blade and the Highland Kelswa. 12 vs. 24 just is not that good. Question, is the rapid strike better than ablative armor.....
Well, my cousin is going to WW LA for me. So, our next reports may feature Solitudes vs. Twins. Wish me luck in getting my NQ results reported!
michaelguth@verizon.net
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Post by baw on Mar 13, 2006 7:18:25 GMT -5
My son is dying to play a solitude. He is a major Republic supporter I played a call to arms this weekend and found a unit that might have some potential against the twins. I had to play it during sealed.. Has anyone looked at the RHD Scourge? Once it starts getting some damage on it.. It becomes deadly!
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 13, 2006 8:47:02 GMT -5
The RHD paradigm is certainly one that lends itself to playing the Twins as long as the Twins do the decent thing and put 7 clicks of damage on your mech.
I've looked at the RHD mechs, and several provide real opportunities to take damage and dish out severe punishment. (I've taken the stats down by 7 clicks to represent the basic damage from the Twins).
VIOLATOR - Too slow, but if it got there, it would hand out 3 with rapid strike. RAPTOR II - Potential to fit double rate which would allow it to dish out 6 ballistic. HOD MONGREL - Has to rely on a HtH weapon at this stage. Knowing my luck, its a "1". FRIGGA THUNDERFOX - Attacks for 10 doing either 2 pulse or 4 arm piercing. Good potential but Twins may well own its rear arc. BALDER KARHU - Has 3 energy and 3 with full sweep. Could add Pulse to dish out 6. Using SU that low in the dial looks dodgy. ULL URSUS - Attack is 9 but has 4 with pulse. Has ability to fit SU evade to get it towards its danger zone or agility to limit the effectiveness of GCBR. SCOURGE - Has 10 attack and 4 pulse and 4 ballistic. The best down-the-dial stats of all. ODIN URSUS - Equip this mech with its pilot and it will attack at 10 with the potential for 9 damage using Alpha Strike (and the chance of an immediate re-start). Is 10 att good enough? HERMOD SOLITAIRE - Will have an 11 attack with its pilot and will pulse for 3 (albeit at 6 inch range). Fitted with Grapple to inhibit GCBR and the fact that its pilot reduces ranged damage to 1, the difficulty may be getting it to its sweet spot! A good anti-twin mech. HEADHUNTER KARHU - Once again, 4 energy permits the fitting of pulse or you have th option of 3 Armour Piercing.
PILOTS - For the points cost, Miraborg in any heavy seems the best bet. Of the uniques, Hermod and Odin need their own pilots to make use of some very good abilities.
The best RHD anti-twin mechs all come in at over 140 points. The fact that they are so low on their dials will probably mean that even though they + their support take out 1 Twin, the second Twin is likely to finish them off (unless you can grapple it to prevent the shoot and scoot).
Overall, an exellent way of killing the Twins but I've not played this faction so I'm unsighted on how easy it is to get their dials where they need to be.
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 13, 2006 15:30:41 GMT -5
The best RHD anti-twin mechs all come in at over 140 points. The fact that they are so low on their dials will probably mean that even though they + their support take out 1 Twin, the second Twin is likely to finish them off (unless you can grapple it to prevent the shoot and scoot).
Except of course, when there's only 1 Twin left, there's no extra order - oops!
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Post by baw on Mar 14, 2006 7:36:23 GMT -5
I really need to get another RHD scourge. I want to see how they would do against the Twins! If DragonDawg comes up this week I will want to try that one out.
The twins army falls down hard when one of the twins gets destroyed. I do like the idea of grapple also!
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Post by tjpandv on Mar 14, 2006 11:57:56 GMT -5
The RHD Scourge with SU Pulse (6 damage from the onset and a click of priming each time you use it) with Miraborg as the pilot (1, 2, 1) comes in at 254 points.
Add a HS Sylph for 30 and True Grit means you're still under 300 points.
The Scourge's jump jets will also let you use Beach as a PCC, requiring the Twins player to roll 4 times every turn.
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Post by baw on Mar 14, 2006 17:59:15 GMT -5
ok.. That is in interesting combination. I was thinking more like this though.. I see issues but I think it would be interesting. The thing that would hurt you is Glory Charge but you need to get where you can threaten the Glory after it gets back there for repair.
Here is an idea.. Not quite perfect but interesting..
4 figures at 449 points) ID Name Points DOM108 Elite Rasalhague Dominion Scourge 196 DOM-P-046 Not Applicable Rasalhague Dominion Rank: Lojtnant 31 DOM108 Elite Rasalhague Dominion Scourge 196 AOD-GS-004 Unique Gunslingers Celina Santos (Rasalhague Dominion) 26
the key thing you would want to do is move up across the board to threaten the twins support. although if they were playing tankdrop it could be ugly. Just something to ponder on!
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