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Post by elite130 on Feb 24, 2006 11:21:38 GMT -5
What you guys need me for you already got BAW..
Everyone looking for anti twins....
Any peope using Kaminari ?
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Post by moonsammy on Feb 24, 2006 11:39:38 GMT -5
If the Elec. Camo takes up too many points in Chikako, then why bring gear at all on him? Oh, and by the way, as long as we're looking to save points, try Yulri Wolf as a pilot instead of Boris. I'll take the +2 move +1 atk over the +0 move +2 atk in this instance. Chikako with Yulri and no gear comes out to only 231 points instead of the 238 with Boris. You could spend the extra points saved from pilot and gear on something like the Merc Faction Pride card which would be much more useful than True Grit in most of these army builds.
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 24, 2006 11:48:37 GMT -5
The merc Faction pride would be 30 points in this build. Downgrading Chikako to Yulri and taking out the LOT gives you 18. What would you take out, MS?
My feeling about yulri over boris is that you need the extra attack more than the speed. Your support is moving at speed 8. Any more than that, and Chikako runs the risk of getting too far away. Plus, there is no formation drop in this army, so how would it deal with RHDMs?
Z
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Post by moonsammy on Feb 24, 2006 12:13:18 GMT -5
Incidentally, I suppose I should post my version of an army if I'm going to be nitpicking here, so here goes:
Chikako x1 = 211 Yulri x1 = 30
RotS Bishop x1 = 39 SC Enyo x1 = 58
HK ATV x2 = 26 CNC ATV x1 = 14
SH TTL x1 = 24
BR Shock Troopers x3 = 48
Total = 450
That's without the Merc Faction Pride, but I could probably wiggle around a bit and get it in there by switching to DF Shock Troops, a HD Bishop, and losing the TTL (which might be too little on its own anyhow).
So basically, my ideal deployment with this army would look something like this: I'd have a lake about 8-10 inches in front of my DZ that I could move Chikako into. I front of this lake there would be a piece of blocking terrain with two more pieces on either side of the lake creating a box that Chikako can stay inside of. This might not sound very feasible, but Twin players are likely to place mostly blocking terrain. I'd hopefully be first player to get off an ATV formation fire onto one of the twins for 2 damage plus heat. For order two, I'd move the TTL straight up the field (I originally thought about starting the TTL inside the Bishop, but after moving it up and deploying, it takes way too long to reload with the Enyo drop). Order three would either move Chikako into the water or just be a pass to see how the twins are going to play it.
From here, my ATVs will try to score a few VC3s before getting eliminated. Chikako will drop tokens once he makes the water so he can either act as bait for the twins, run after either twin that happens to run into heat trouble (admittedly not very likely), or assault any support that comes close enough (19" AO range). The TTL will stay near enough to Chikako/the Enyo drop that if a twin comes after the TTL it will be a gamble. The Shock Troops will act as my basers in close to Chiky and the Enyo drop (their JJs come in handy near the water).
This army, or a close variation on it, worked well yesterday against a three mech army including the twins. Chikako ended up dead, but I killed both twins (one with a shot from the TTL after the mech was injured) and captured the third mech with the Shock Troops. I won VC2 only, we tied on VC3, and neither of us completed our mission cards. Granted, this wasn't what I would call a stellar victory, but I consider my opponent a solid player, and I was happy to get the win.
One more quick point, I think the twin army I fear the most is the BR/SS army. This nullifies the ATV first strike which is very useful in my opinion.
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Post by moonsammy on Feb 24, 2006 12:19:48 GMT -5
This is a pretty Twin-specific army, and I do worry about the lack of a formation drop, but if I were to take out the TTL, switch to DF Shock Troops, and swithc to an all HK ATV force, that would buy my 30 points exactly for the Merc FP card. In my mind, with Merc FP, the necessity for a formation drop is not as strong. We're looking at an 11 atk on Chikako and a 9 IT on the Enyo. Can they hit 23 def? Not every time, but it's not impossible.
It is a gamble, so I guess I would be worried about a RHDM.
This army is my best "Scissors" to the twins' "Paper," but I would be worried about a RHDM "Rock."
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Post by baw on Feb 24, 2006 12:34:14 GMT -5
As a player I would put lots of blocking down.. That hinders chikako only a little. I would definitely have terrain to protect one of the corners.. Far enough out so you couldn't Streak or assault to my good hiding spot.. If I couldn't tie up the middle.. The thing you have to be careful of is not moving chikako away from the other units or chikako or support units are going to be targets!
Your support is not very mobile.. If chikako goes out by himself.. I think he will be destroyed..
hmm More later.. work calls
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Post by baw on Feb 24, 2006 13:19:47 GMT -5
@elite Kaminira has some promise and the added benefit of being really good against lots of things.. You are much better Strategic than I I can do tactics.. (although not as well under great pressure as I had hoped ) Ok Kaminira has some potential... How I would attack kaminira with the twins.. Use the twin with AP.. Then the one with pulse.. One The twins probably get hit back for 4 then the other twin gets two attacks off on Shiro.. and if that doesn't finish him off the other twin finishes the shiro off. I realize that is somewhat simplistic but it does sound like a scary posibility...
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Post by baw on Feb 24, 2006 13:24:30 GMT -5
I had a 600pt BR/SSW Twins army I like... The bad thing is that it makes you be on the offensive.. Although the twins do that better than most
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Post by TrevortheAwesome on Feb 24, 2006 16:46:37 GMT -5
Hey guys, Zxqueb asked me to chime in on the discussion over here. More than likely, a fatty is not going to be the way to take on the Twins. It gives them a point of focus in their offensive, and your 280 pts. of 'Mech will likely not be able to equal the effectiveness of THEIR 280 pts. of 'Mech. That said, if any 'Mech has a chance to beat them, it's Chief. Hardened armor on the first click is nice, the ability to ignore Evade (with Short) is nice, access to Coolant Pod is double nice, but what really sells it is his stat stability: his damage profile does not change for the first 8 clicks. I'm gonna repeat that: CHIEF DOES 5 DAMAGE BALLISITIC 8 CLICKS DOWN HIS DIAL. I've been kinda keeping Chief under my hat for a potential Worlds army, but the reason I'm sharing it with you guys is a.) the fact that this board doesn't have nearly the readership of 'Realms, and b.) the fact that I haven't found a good 450 army for him yet. At least, not one that is as effective anti-Twin as it is against the field. But by all means, check him out. He's fantastic. I think a 'Mechless build is likely the best way to take them on, but that becomes problematic too, due simply to the lack of cheap Command. The DF Tokugawa is fantastic for its cost-to-damage ratio. Range and stat stability aren't great, but it doesn't need a formation to hit a Twin consistently. The HS Sylph is a key fig, but it's not perfect because it's easy for a Twin to CC it then break away. Still, you force the Twin player to burn orders getting around it, and few figs force them to do even that. Point Defense-Repair is also good. A BR Elite Infantry-LI Combat Tech combo serves in that role, and can serve as an emergency capture team, too, if it comes down to that. At the end of the day though, I think there's only one guaranteed Twin-beater: the FAQ. Something more's gotta be done.
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Post by baw on Feb 24, 2006 22:31:23 GMT -5
I agree that something more needs to be done with them.. Hmm I have heard some people talking about the Chief.. I didn't pay it much mind.. I will have to look at his stats and what can support him again... The key thing is going to be his support. Sure he has a decent chance of hitting a twin after taking 5 or 6 clicks of initial damage. The next round they will destroy him if the Chief's support doesn't come in and help him.
It is still scary the amount of hate these girls put out...
I do like the idea of HS Sylph for fighting twins.
Finding an army that works in general and against twins is just a very very tough thing.. It will be impressive if someone finds it.. Although we are really limiting on what we can play because of the twins.
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Post by elite130 on Feb 25, 2006 8:20:18 GMT -5
Ok Kaminira has some potential... How I would attack kaminira with the twins.. Use the twin with AP.. Then the one with pulse.. One The twins probably get hit back for 4 then the other twin gets two attacks off on Shiro.. and if that doesn't finish him off the other twin finishes the shiro off. I realize that is somewhat simplistic but it does sound like a scary posibility... The one with AP does 2 damage not changing the stats keeping Hardend the Pulse will do nothing unless it is a crit. At best the other twin can do 1 damage. if using Balistic. Meaning that i then can do 4 damge to one twin and the other can do a max of 4 damage to Kaminari using 2 orders or has to run. But that is a static situation not including support, the twins dont like going after Kaminari and the Shiro is the ultimate support killer. Yami could do the same indirectly. Just some thoughts and I agree that you must have an army that can deal with more than just the twins. Regards E130 I look into the king crab trev honest i will
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Post by baw on Feb 27, 2006 9:40:42 GMT -5
Ok.. Eloquence is not my gift elite130Ok here is how I see it.. Twins against Kaminira.. The move up (under 4") and shoot Kaminira.. 1 with AP and the other with 3 damage Kaminari is now 4 damage.. He hits.. (he has to assault order) Twins return fire... they will eat kaminari alive then.. Are am I seeing this incorrectly? Support of course will make a big difference but I am just saying I don't see the Kaminira that much better than any other mech against the twins..
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Post by baw on Feb 27, 2006 9:41:44 GMT -5
My son is going to play KC tonight against the twins.. I will see how that goes.. It does look like it has potential.. The thing i saw yesterday playing against the twins is that you have to push hard and take big risks to have a chance to beat them..
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Post by elite130 on Feb 27, 2006 14:24:45 GMT -5
Ok.. Eloquence is not my gift elite130Ok here is how I see it.. Twins against Kaminira.. The move up (under 4") and shoot Kaminira.. 1 with AP and the other with 3 damage Kaminari is now 4 damage.. He hits.. (he has to assault order) Twins return fire... they will eat kaminari alive then.. Are am I seeing this incorrectly? Support of course will make a big difference but I am just saying I don't see the Kaminira that much better than any other mech against the twins.. Errr true my mistake. I was counting 4 clicks of hardend instead of 3. after 4 damage the twins still strike back hard enough. But I will be very honest I am working on twin armies more than anything else. The ECC is 600 points 2 mech minimum, I am guessing plenty of twins then. For the next 2 months that is where my focus is.
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Post by baw on Feb 28, 2006 7:43:10 GMT -5
ok No one is really posting that many twin armies.. I think everyone is trying to find the perfect combination. I expect to see LOTS of them at the National Championships here... @trevor My son played the Chief in a 600 pt army last night.. I was suprised to see how well the Chief did. (I actually played the same army afterwards against the Army the BM brought. He really wanted to play but not against twins ) Chief only has a couple of issues... The first is SPEED.. He just isn't fast enough and going along with that is range/Assault range.. The third is THAT HEAT DIAL! It was 600 pt scenario.. So he had support.. When I played I manage to fight off a JF Force with Black Rose and a Loki.. I am going to have to look at it in a 450 game.. That is going to be the trick.. Figuring out the correct support for it will be the trick! I am going to have to ponder some more on it.. One of my votes is arty though (sheesh that is always my vote!)
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