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Post by baw on Feb 22, 2006 10:09:29 GMT -5
Ok this still isn't right.. it loses a lot of the synergy you had with your army. I really don't feel like the Combat Tech needs a drop.. Maybe I am wrong..
here is an idea!
AOD123 Unique Gunslingers Xanthos 'Chikako' 211 FI-GS-020 Unique Gunslingers Boris Vassilev (No recruiting) 37 AOD066 Veteran Spirit Cats R10 Mechanized ICV 48 FI036 Elite Dragon's Fury Tokugawa Heavy Tank 60 AN004 Elite House Liao Combat Technicians 15 FI012 Elite House Steiner Towed Thunder Launcher 26 FI012 Elite House Steiner Towed Thunder Launcher 26 DOM001 Green Republic of the Sphere Minigun Cycle 9 DOM001 Green Republic of the Sphere Minigun Cycle 9 DOM001 Green Republic of the Sphere Minigun Cycle 9
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 22, 2006 10:57:15 GMT -5
I'm going to ponder your army for a while before I respond to the build. I will say this about repair: If you have to go back to a repair base, you won't get the repair off at all if your opponent has atvs or basers.
Against the twins, you want chikako somewhere in the middle of the board to have any sort of control... preferably, you want him in water with the vehicles protecting his rear arc from being based. If he takes a hit (and he will), you want the repair guy there with him, unbased and in contact. Even if chicky becomes based, you can break, drop + repair in one go without giving up board position (i.e.; running like a little girl) or letting your repair tech get based before the attempt.
One other point. The Saxon can block rear arc in water while the minigun cycles can't.
I see the use of the TTLs agaist non-twins armies, but they are going to be prime targets for the twins who will likely hit, kill one or two and fade out of range. Still, they might be useful as bait if you led with them and held Chikako in reserve a bit...
Hmm.
Z
Z
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Post by baw on Feb 22, 2006 12:55:59 GMT -5
ok... Part of a problem with the Drop and repair... Lets say Chikako is in the middle of board in water (I assume) you are going to have to drop the Combat tech into water to be able to repair chikako.. You can't repair from outside of water to inside of water.. This just seems like a problem with the drop to me.. actually I am seeing against the twins playing a more defensive role than offensive.. I would have chikako more back towards my support units... Use the arty to force the twins support to move around.. (I know a drop would be nice for the TTL's but points are points).. I agree it is far from a perfect solution... Actually the saxon can't block a rear shot from the twins. I think the twins can still base in the rear with the saxon there... I am not sure who much good the saxon is actually going to for protecting Chikako. I will have to play some with that at home I am really struggling with coming up with a combo that will be at least a little bit competitive against things other than the twins.. It is going to be a big challenge!
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 22, 2006 16:27:14 GMT -5
ok... Part of a problem with the Drop and repair... Lets say Chikako is in the middle of board in water (I assume) you are going to have to drop the Combat tech into water to be able to repair chikako.. You can't repair from outside of water to inside of water.. This just seems like a problem with the drop to me.. Not a big deal, you just drop the guy in water. The saxon treats water as clear for movement and the tech is speed mode foot. Well, if the twins are being defensive and hiding, then Chikako definitely needs to go on the attack and hit the support early. I can see the role you want the TTLs to fill. I think this is a playstyle difference. I'm not too keen on them as units. Saxon doesn't block the rear arc shot, but it + the r10 (or the atvs -- just keep chikky near the edge of water) keeps the twins from being able to base outside of the front arc. I've already written off the damage on Chikako before the game begins. The important thing is in the hitback. Yep. That's the problem with the twins and why I think they still need a fix in this incarnation. Can they be beaten? Yes, but to do it you need to have an army that can't compete with anything else... or it's not really even close. Z
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 22, 2006 17:39:12 GMT -5
What do you think about dropping the tokugawa for an enyo?
The thought being that Chikako can take a hit, hit back for 4 and finish one twin in a round with the enyo's pulse (10 clicks, baby!)
Z
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Post by baw on Feb 23, 2006 9:27:13 GMT -5
You talking about a HS or CNC Enyo... Hmmm I have one more thought that I have considered for your type of army... Maybe Lock-on Targeting.. That extra +1 to hit would be nice! It seems like a much more promising option.. The big danger is you have to make sure a twin doesn't base you outside Chikako's front arc.. That would be devastating. Also if Chikako was based by some atv's it would be nasty.. You have to remember that The twins are still going to have a bunch of support....
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 23, 2006 9:59:30 GMT -5
Switching the DF tokugawa to a CNC Enyo brings my army to 450 even, which is nice. The SC Enyo may also work to eek out a few more points if need be. I know that the twins support is there, and it may be a problem, no question. That's why I would play aggressively with my forces, taking the battle to them. If the twins stay away for fear of losing one in a round, Chikako will very likely be able to deal with the support.
I like the idea of lock on targetting, and I have to say that the more I think about your argument against true grit in this army, the more I am starting to agree with you.
If I drop true Grit, add LOT and drop the Toku for the SC enyo, I have 8 points to play with. I suppose I can downgrade the LI repair tech to a 13 point ROTS version, bringing me up to 10pts, which gives me a WH minigun cycle to run in formation with the saxon and the r10.
Chikako+boris + Lock on Targetting
SC r10 SC Enyo
SC saxon ROTS Combat techs
WH Minigun cycle
CNC Atv HK ATV x2
Total - 450
Thoughts?
Z
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 23, 2006 11:14:18 GMT -5
Addition: Thinking strategically about this, if Chikako puts his nose in an H building 1/2 to 2/3rds up the field, you can keep him from being based by the opposing army at all, keeping him free to counter assault order the twins or streak the support as needed.
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Post by baw on Feb 23, 2006 13:21:23 GMT -5
I think Lock On targeting is a good idea for Chikako.. It is really useful even against Black Rose if she DFA's you.. I realize the strategy of using the H to protect Chikako.. The issue is you are talking about using a defensive maneuver with an agressive army... It is always something good to have up your sleeve but if you are agressively moving up the board... There probably isn' t going to be that many opportunities.. My reasoning on having arty or something is to force the twins to come to you for tank drop and chikako pouncing! Your army is really starting to come together.... I have a question.. Why ATV's rather than Miniguns? Are you really going to infilitrate them that far? If you become more of a defensive army you can drop the saxon because you won't need the long distance Repair deployment... Ok.. I hope you don't mind my continually picking at the army I am just thinking out loud.. You are talking about taking an offensive army... how many turns is it going to be before your Enyo is within deployment range.. It will take a lot of turns to get across the board in that R10. I really like the idea of the WH Minigun with the Two SC vehicles.. that gives a lot of flexibility. The thing that scares me is the type of support that the twins are going to have! ok.. The new twins are only 280 pts.. You are now looking at 170pts of support! You have built your whole army to deal with less than 2/3's of his army. You still have more than 1/3 his army to account for.. That is something to be concerned about. We need to post a twin army and then see how this army would stack against it... Then we have to look at how it would stack against the Shiros and Black rose armies..
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 23, 2006 16:47:27 GMT -5
one quick note -- I'm on my way out. The drop has a threat range of 19". I could hit the opposing DZ on turn 4.
Z
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Post by moonsammy on Feb 23, 2006 17:01:19 GMT -5
What about Elec. Camo on Chikako? It works very nicely against all types of armies, particularly the Yami Shiro. I'm actually surprised it hasn't come up yet even if it would just get shot down immediately.
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Post by baw on Feb 23, 2006 21:44:45 GMT -5
Elec Camo is a preferred equipmentof Chikako.. You are quite correct. It reallly doesn't help against the twins.. it is still worth considering.. Right now we are trying to work our way through a reasonable chance to kill the twins with Chikako...
4 turns seems like an awfully long time.. Especially assuming there is NO terrain between you and the Opponents deployment zone. I am just bringing up concerns... We still have to thinkn about all the support the twins might have!
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 24, 2006 9:18:18 GMT -5
@ baw,
To reply to a couple points that you have made...
If the army is solid enough at being anti-twin, the twins will be cautious about the approach because I can kill one in a turn. If they are staying away from my force (which is moving en masse, remember), I should be free to use Chikako to take out the support. At the point that the twins engage, I forget about the support for the next turn and go full bore at the twins, kill one and return to attacking support, only this time, I can use my tank drop as well.
Maybe, maybe not. I like having options. If I have the 1st turn, I like being able to wing a twin for 2 + heat (10 attack IT) before the game really begins. That knocks them out of evade and makes them much easier to hit. My enyo can now salvage one in a shot. If I don't go first, then I move them to places on the battlefield where I know I will need them (next to H20 to protect Chikako's flank for example). They give me more options than Miniguns because I don't always need to give them orders if I put them in a good position from the get go.
Until a twin is dead, the enyo is simply used as a counter strike threat. Chikako is the main damage dealer. I can't think of a situation where I would drop the Enyo at support with a twin strike potentially coming down the pike. Besides, I play FAST. 4 turns is potentially the 1st 10-15 minutes of the game (30 seconds / turn for me, 3 for my opponent)
EDIT: Ok -- I thought of a situation where I would consider dropping the enyo.... if a bishop were setting up for a drop around a corner, I might streak with Chikako and drop with the enyo to salvage the bishop.
I asked on the WK forums -- Elite gave this meta-rundown:
Not at all! I am glad for the additional eyes to help strengthen / revise it and for the potential combat situations that you bring up. If I have a strategy for how to deal with them, I'm far better off in a game.
@ MoonSammy,
EC is definitely a good gear, but the problem with the twins is that you need a very specific build to take them out and including a ~25 pt gear on Chikako really limits your support. Since the twins don't really care about the EC, it's not really useful in a twins environment.
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Post by baw on Feb 24, 2006 10:45:12 GMT -5
I don't think I want to play against you I tend to be a slower player.. Sometimes fast but most of the times I like to know my every move and every possibility... Ok lets look at the three mech possibility.. Against your army... How I would play it Run most of the game.. stay away (duh) easy choice for the Twins.. Find a lone unit or wait until end of game and charge with a unit move the twins up and destroy or salvage and prevent the drop from the salvaged/destroyed equipment!
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Post by Zxqueb on Feb 24, 2006 10:47:32 GMT -5
Ok. With my army, Chikako takes the middle (preferably in water). I have an 18" threat range with streaks. You have to be in the very corner of the square to be out of my threat range. If you hide, I press a bit, pin your non-twin mech with my range and fire for effect. Z
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